Ready to wake up...

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AuroraDance
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Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:01 am

Hi! Are there any guides out there willing to work with me? I don't have internet at my house, so I need to get to a coffeeshop or campus to write longer responses, but I have it on my phone. If you're patient, I would love to try this.

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:47 am

Hi,

One mail a day is OK.
What are your expectations?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:59 pm

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for working with me. I think my main expectation is that I should KNOW, without a doubt, that I don't exist. I don't think I am there yet.

I have been exploring this idea for the last few weeks though (and I think have had flashes of insight around it before that) and I am reaching those same conclusions that I've seen others on this forum (and in other places) describe, yet maybe I'm expecting something more profound? Something that will stick more than what I've experienced so far?

I feel like... I can SEE it... It all makes complete sense to me, and yet that KNOWING, that visceral conviction I have when I know that something is true... I don't think I've reached that point yet.

I keep catching the "I" coming back into my mind, telling its stories about its existence, and maybe I expect that to stop... at least for longer than I've experienced so far.

Thanks again,
Kristy

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:51 am

Hi Kristy,

It’s about seeing that the ‘I’ isn’t real.
Once really seen you are sure about it and don’t need anymore to know it.

Try first to see what is real and what is unreal.
What is real is the direct experience of the five senses and the thoughts.
The content of a thought is not real but relate to an experience or to other thoughts.

In direct experience there is only sensing, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling.
Afterwards a thought comes in with a label about the experience. Then another thought like ‘I hear this’. Then a feeling or emotion followed by another thought, ….

Look at this pattern of thoughts and feelings building up after a direct experience.
See what is real and what is story building.
See where the story of the ‘I’, ‘me’ or sense of self starts.

Do you see this?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:44 pm

Once really seen you are sure about it and don’t need anymore to know it.
So maybe I have not really seen? It seems like I "get it" intellectually, but I have to keep thinking about it, convincing myself. Otherwise, I just slip back into that belief that I am the "I". I create my story, I am a self that can be harmed, that is invested in having things happen a certain way.
Look at this pattern of thoughts and feelings building up after a direct experience.
See what is real and what is story building.
See where the story of the ‘I’, ‘me’ or sense of self starts.

Do you see this?
I do... At least, I think so. I will pay attention to that today and let you know how it goes...

Is it just a matter of breaking that old habit of identifying with an old thought that I am an "I"?
Thanks Patrick,
Kristy

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:29 am

When around Christmas time you see a man dressed like Santa Claus you recognize the character but you don’t have to think that he is not real. Once you knew that he was not real you never believed again that he is real.

Just the same with the ‘I’. Some steps:
First you see that it is just a thought.
Then you see that the ‘I’ is only the content of a thought and can’t be real.
You see still ‘I’ thoughts coming up but you don’t believe them anymore. They are lessening.
A shift in perception happens and the sense of self falls away.
You see that the ‘I’ never was.

Is this useful?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:08 am

When around Christmas time you see a man dressed like Santa Claus you recognize the character but you don’t have to think that he is not real. Once you knew that he was not real you never believed again that he is real.
I think I must still believe in Santa then, at least somewhat, because I sometimes feel I am just telling myself there is no "I". Like I'm telling myself there's no Santa, but when I see Santa walking around, I want to go up to him and interact with him as Santa. Only if I catch myself and remind myself "These are just thoughts, they aren't real, they aren't you", can I somewhat come out of it. But often it just feels like I'm just telling myself that and that the "I" feels more real to me.

I have this expectation that it should be night and day; when I get this, it should be completely clear. Because it isn't, I know I'm not there yet. I get what you're saying intellectually, but if I have always acted like I had a self and everyone else has treated me as if I was a self (even if their idea of who my "self" is doesn't match my idea of my "self"), aren't I, for all intents and purposes, a self? A separate identity in the world? I'm struggling to break out of it because it is reinforced everywhere and my personal experience of "liberation" hasn't been convincing enough.

I don't know how to wake up, but I want to, but I'm scared that I am still too attached to my "self" to really let it happen.

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:52 am

See for the moment the difference between the character, the role player in life and the personality.

The character is the player of the role with this body, with likes and dislikes, talents, abilities and inabilities. This character is playing his role in life as life. It’s the way life expresses itself.

The personal identity, the sense of self, has been created since childhood to conform to the society.
The personality wants always something else, wants constantly to improve or to change, expecting more from life.

So when the ‘I’ believe is falling away nothing changes in reality. Live continues with less believes.

See that live happens, no you there to change anything.
Who are you? Look deeply and try to find any you.

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:57 am

I do notice that when I let go of the “I” that I am much more relaxed, that life seems to flow more smoothly, and fear seems to be less of a problem. I also find it easier to accept what is happening, or has happened, or will happen, because I am not really attached to any outcome. I’m not sure I fully let go of my sense of self in those moments though. There is still a “Kristy”…she is just more relaxed, detached, content.

I’m not sure how to “look deeply” to see if there is an “I”. It feels like there is. There has to be. I don’t understand how you can function without something to hold it all together.

I have read in many places that when you see through this, then you just KNOW. That is the only thing I do feel confident about: If someone were to ask me if I were “awake”, I would say… I don’t know. Doesn’t that mean that I am missing something here?

I am frustrated. I feel stuck.

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:37 am

Knowing means here that you have seen that the sense of self doesn’t exist.
Then you know also without hesitation that you are ‘liberated’ or ‘awake’.
Some need time to stabilize this in daily life. The mind needs some clean-up of old patterns.
Therefore we have an aftercare group.

"There has to be. I don’t understand how you can function without something to hold it all together."
What are the bodily sensations and feelings with the idea that there could be nothing in control of life?
What is the fear?

When you relax the mind is there a ‘sense of self’ still present or are this only sensations in the body, feelings and thoughts?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:16 am

Hi Patrick,
Sorry I didn’t respond yesterday – I was gone for most of the weekend.
What are the bodily sensations and feelings with the idea that there could be nothing in control of life?
What is the fear? What is the fear?
When I think about how there is nothing in control of life, or at least, not my mind, I actually feel a little relieved. I feel grateful. I feel my body relax a little bit. It feels like a really good thing, actually. My mind wasn’t doing a great job controlling it anyway.
And yet, there is definitely some fear there. I think the fear is that I will not have the things I have always wanted… because I won’t want them anymore… which sort of solves that problem of wanting them in the first place. I’m afraid that things might fall apart; that everything I have worked hard to create will cease to be meaningful and will just collapse. I’m already starting to feel my ambition waning in a few areas of my life.
When you relax the mind is there a ‘sense of self’ still present or are this only sensations in the body, feelings and thoughts?
When I relax the mind…I don’t feel a self. I don’t even know what a “self” should feel like! Maybe I have never felt a “self”, only imagined it. I do feel the aliveness of my body, though, and how it is so…intelligent. It can do a lot without any directive thoughts from the mind.

I think I am starting to see a little bit.

Thank you,
Kristy

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:56 am

Great.
Continue looking how life unfolds.
Can you stop it?
Can you change it in the moment?
Are the thoughts afterwards not also happening and not in control of anyone?

If your idea of being in control falls away what could be changed?
There is already no one in control. So nothing changes, only your perception of life.
What is there to fear?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:04 am

Great.
Continue looking how life unfolds.
Can you stop it?
Can you change it in the moment?
Are the thoughts afterwards not also happening and not in control of anyone?
I see that my mind only seems to get in the way. It actually doesn't change much of anything, even if it tries to. I still find myself forgetting this though. Old habits die hard, and this one is no different. But I do find that life is much more effortless when I realize that I have nothing to defend or satisfy.
If your idea of being in control falls away what could be changed?
There is already no one in control. So nothing changes, only your perception of life.
Realizing this though... how do you make it a permanent shift in perception? I see the gate... but am I through?
What is there to fear?
I don't know. There always seems to be some anxiety in living in an entirely new way. I do not have experience living like this and even if I know that my old way of existing wasn't even necessarily effective or satisfying, at least it was familiar. This feels like uncharted territory. Not only that, but I don't know anyone else personally who really know this territory, besides you or anyone else on here.

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Patrick
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby Patrick » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:54 pm

Nobody knows this territory. It’s every moment new.
Get used to it. :-)

You can’t make a shift happening, it happens or doesn’t happens like everything else. Don’t focus on this.

Just see that the ‘I’ doesn’t exist. This takes just one look.
Don’t believe her stories anymore. There is nothing wrong with stories, just see that they are not real.

Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Do you exist as an individual?

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AuroraDance
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Re: Ready to wake up...

Postby AuroraDance » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:24 am

Nobody knows this territory. It’s every moment new.
Get used to it. :-)
Ha... ok, will do :)
Just see that the ‘I’ doesn’t exist. This takes just one look.
Don’t believe her stories anymore. There is nothing wrong with stories, just see that they are not real.

Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Do you exist as an individual?
I do honestly feel that I am an individual. I see how my thoughts affect my emotions and can sometimes incite my body to do something (ie. I have a thought to go check the mail, then I get up and go check the mail). All of that together seems to create this "me", all elements of myself working in concert to create my life and my experiences. I feel like there are two different kinds of thoughts though: the kind that spontaneously arise that don't tell a story about "me", but are just helpful in reminding me to do certain things, be aware of something, etc. The other sort of thoughts are more labeling, "talking to myself" type thoughts, or thoughts about the past or future, something other than any need in the present. I'm starting to see these thoughts as something unnecessary, not helpful, and not real.

At the same time... I feel like my body/experience/presence (I don't know what this is), when I detach from my mind, takes on the same quality of being in the moment as everything around me. Just total presence... no thoughts, no story, just experience, just existence. Then I do not feel a "me". Or at least... "me" doesn't hold meaning any longer.


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