Understanding Perceptions & sensations

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Seb-Zero
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Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:18 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Would like to get pointer to look more deeply into the nature of my perceptions and sensations.
Would like to get clear pointer to help me look and find out what this awarness is made of, if I am the entire world that appear to me or what it is. If there is no body then what is the nature of this experience I have ? And what about the nature of the experience of everybody else ? Am I in a dream ?

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
Looking to get a better handle on what makes up my experiences. Finding the actual nature of this phenomena of thoughts, sensations and perceptions. What are they really, how does it all work ? What else can we look for ? And how to get there ?

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Like reading the kind of Rupert Spira, Greg Goode, theravad buddhism, Gene Gendlin, Gilles Deleuze...Have been into Mooji's flat singing songs and been into buddhist meditation reaching the jhanas...Have listened to the like of Tony parsons, Joan Tollifson and similar.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
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vinceschubert
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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:26 am

Hey Seb. vince here.
Have a bit of a rant on your Self and how that might change from this investigation.

love

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:39 am

Hi Vince,

My self is like a knot of thoughts and meta thoughts criticising and enjoying whatever is happening or going on. So there's an action say at work where I have to respond to multiple queries from people and then there's a comment thought on this action say for instance "you're too slow" "they're going to find out you're not doing enough" with a harsh bit
Or simply like if I'm tired or have a headache it's going to be lots of ranting why am I so tired why this lack of energy and followed by looking on the Internet on how to tackle this tiredness how to use the best food and take a physical activity to try to improve it. And then realizing that all this Internet search was like procrastinating and then having to come back to the pile of emails waiting for me and people chasing me to tackle the problems at end. And then at night doing some sport and drinking and playing or reading the phone late because the flip side of the coin is to enjoy what is pleasurable such as listening to yet another video of Francis Lucille and getting lost in the enjoyment of a book or the next article or the final yoghurt and orange juice of the night. Suddenly realizing it's late and trying to go to bed.

What will change ? No sure. I guess being more accepting that whatever happens is what is happening and that there's nothing I could do to actually make things change. But then what would be the point of being here with you getting some pointing if I didn't believe that this would help somehow one way or another other :)

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vinceschubert
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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:32 am

Good evening Seb,
My self is like a knot of thoughts and meta thoughts criticising and enjoying whatever is happening or going on.
Are you saying that when you think of your Self, that it is rooted in thoughts and meta thoughts ?
Do you think that your Self has thoughts ? ..or is those thoughts ?
if I'm tired or have a headache it's going to be lots of ranting
Do you mean, your thoughts ranting ?
And then realizing that all this Internet search was like procrastinating
So, a general feeling of being overwhelmed and out of control ?
look more deeply into the nature of my perceptions
Good one. Do you think that your perceptual perspective distorts what is actual ?

love

vince

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:57 am

Evening Vince,
Are you saying that when you think of your Self, that it is rooted in thoughts and meta thoughts ?
Thinking about my self is a kind of finger pointing to thoughts, perceptions and sensations, almost like a thought that passes a thread through the fabric of these basic components making them a consistent "thingy" through memory and a kind of synthetic operation.
Do you think that your Self has thoughts ?


I perceive thoughts. Cannot say if there is a self that has thoughts though.
..or is those thoughts ?
Well the "Self" is a thought(me, I, against the rest of the world)-sensation(anger, happiness)-perception(image in mirror, hands, voice...)
Do you mean, your thoughts ranting ?
The ranting is the perception of thougths
So, a general feeling of being overwhelmed and out of control ?
More a feeling of doing some things I should'nt (i.e. I should focus on my work instead of looking on diet and tiredness advises)
Good one. Do you think that your perceptual perspective distorts what is actual ?
I don't know if it does or if it could. In a way it does because if I like chocolate and see a delicious chocolate cake it's going to drive me towards it. Whereas if I don't care about it (or have already eaten too much) it's just going to be neutral or look a bit repulsive.

Maybe I'm missing the point though. What do you call "perspective" here precisely ?

Thanks a lot !

Seb

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:16 am

Good evening Seb,
Thinking about my self is a kind of finger pointing to thoughts, perceptions and sensations, almost like a thought that passes a thread through the fabric of these basic components making them a consistent "thingy" through memory and a kind of synthetic operation.
We need to get this (communication) really clear. i think that you are saying, that a thought unites all of these perceptions, sensations, and other thoughts. That it joins them under a label of Self. Is this accurate ?
I perceive thoughts. Cannot say if there is a self that has thoughts though.
This is a good example of something that we will get better at, with experience. It is the use of language.
Language is evolved by the users of it. New words get added to the dictionary, because people are using them.
The difficulty with this stuff (our investigation) is that there simply aren't the words to express accurately, much of what we experience. So when i say "i think that you are saying...", i am using language in a 'normal' way. That is as a tool to communicate something. i don't mean an actual I.
So when you say "I perceive thoughts.", is this the same I (self) that you are unsure about it having thoughts ?
Well the "Self" is a thought
Would it be accurate to say that if the Self is a thought, that thought is the Self ?
More a feeling of doing some things I should'nt
Hmmm, language again. You say a feeling of doing something that you shouldn't, is this a feeling (sensation) or thoughts ? (or something else?)
What do you call "perspective" here precisely ?
Context. The frame of reference. If you look at the world through a piece of pipe (maybe the cardboard tube in the center of toilet paper) you have a narrow perspective. Because you are not seeing the context of your view, you can get a distorted idea of what you are seeing.
https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl ... mrc&uact=8


love

vince

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:04 pm

Evening Vince,
you are saying, that a thought unites all of these perceptions, sensations, and other thoughts. That it joins them under a label of Self. Is this accurate ?
Yes exactly.
So when you say "I perceive thoughts.", is this the same I (self) that you are unsure about it having thoughts ?
This language thing looks quite thorny indeed !
Well when I say "I perceive thoughts" what I mean is that thoughts are appearing and I am aware of them. Not sure what the "self" is in this though. At a basic level thoughts are perceived here and now. At a more sophisticated level they point or comment about something such as why am I not a better fitter wittier "person". These criticisms are thoughts appearing here and now too. The person they refer to might be what I need to look at deeper to see if I find anything appart from memories of thoughts and sensations bundled together, that are also appearing too or sometimes not as they are implied by the criticism.
Would it be accurate to say that if the Self is a thought, that thought is the Self ?
It's not just a thought. It is also a color or moving color like the color of my hands or a sensation like the current sensation that seems to be located around my throat (itchy feeling), heart (warmth) or belly (slight tension and discomfort after the meal).

And all of these combine and in a way ARE the current self yes. I can also remember older selves which were slightly or pretty different.
Hmmm, language again. You say a feeling of doing something that you shouldn't, is this a feeling (sensation) or thoughts ? (or something else?)
Let me look. So there's a sensation of discomfort or tightening in the stomach. On the side there is a comment in the background interpreting this sensation as being one of warning that says "dude move your *ss and try to finish this or come back to this task before you get into trouble". Is the thought interpreting ? I don't know really. I am just aware of both he thought and the tight sensation. And then another thought come and say that the feelig is interpreted by the first thought. And all 3 the sensation the commentary and the "meta" thought are all together at once.
Do you think that your perceptual perspective distorts what is actual ?
OK let me come back to this question with the new perspective you provided. (Nice image indeed by the way!) Well maybe the perspective distorts but is there an ultimate perspective? I doubt so. The present perspective simply is what it is. For instance if a stick appears bent when in the water it gives more information on both the water AND the stick when compared with the "real" stick that is straight. Or same when looking at something under different light. Then we say when looked under the sunlight it appears green but when looked under another light it appears blue. And the blue is exactly the same as the blue a really truly blue object has under the sunlight.

So the perspective is distorting yes but there is always a perspective is there not? And could we choose a different perspective ? Would uou have little exercice to do to help me use a nicer perspective? I could look at the sensation now of my hand in contact with the phone. The sensation is here and now. It doesn't tell me about a phone or a hand. It is just here changing and vibrating. If I focus on the sensation there is no hand or phone just a naked sensation. Is this the kind of perspective that could be more useful ? More useful to what ? What else could happen or be ? Isn't even the current "me and the phone" perspective ok and whatever is appearing now ? How does this work ? A thought makes it and then it appears that wayour?

Thanks a lot!

Thanks a lot

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:32 am

'evening Seb,
when I say "I perceive thoughts" what I mean is that thoughts are appearing and I am aware of them.
Would it be more accurate to say that thoughts are appearing and awareness of them happens ?
These criticisms are thoughts appearing here and now too. The person they refer to might be what I need to look at deeper to see if I find anything apart from memories of thoughts and sensations bundled together,
Yes, do that. ..and while you are looking, entertain the possibility that they are thoughts that arise out of stories told to you by parents and others.
And all of these combine and in a way ARE the current self yes.
So the self is created by sensory input and thoughts. Is this accurate ?
I am just aware of both he thought and the tight sensation. And then another thought come and say that the feeling is interpreted by the first thought. And all 3 the sensation the commentary and the "meta" thought are all together at once.
..and have you got a name for this combination ?
but is there an ultimate perspective? I doubt so.
Me too.
So the perspective is distorting yes but there is always a perspective is there not? And could we choose a different perspective ?
The available perspectives are the result of conditions. That is circumstances and the conditioning that experience has given you. This will certainly change as a result of your doing this investigation.
Would you have little exercise to do to help me use a nicer perspective?
This is a bit of a progression, but start with this one; Read the instructions a couple of times, then do it.
Pick something in front of you to look at.
Now as you look at it, notice how the mind wants to describe it. To label it. To label various characteristics of it.
Keep looking until the thoughts slow down. Until they run out of narrative about what you are looking at.
Now switch from looking at it, to seeing it.
Notice the impossibility of explaining or describing the subtle aspects of it. How the color has a particular quality that language cannot convey with any semblance of accuracy.
Now ask yourself if there is anywhere a see-er seeing the seen, except as a thought deduction.
Is there only seeing ?
What are the sensations happening now ?

love

vince

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:51 pm

Good evening Vince,
Would it be more accurate to say that thoughts are appearing and awareness of them happens ?
I cannot make the difference between the appearance of a thought and the awareness of it. I have no experience of a non awared thought appart from the description of it by Freud or Lacan under the terms "unconscious" but I have no direct experience of it. The unconscious is inferred like an electronic is inferred but never proven to actually exist.
Yes, do that. ..and while you are looking, entertain the possibility that they are thoughts that arise out of stories told to you by parents and others.
OK good exercise. So for instance I am ill eight now. So I can feel a tickly throat a runny nose a headache, an overall feeling tired ie gravity feels stronger lol. So now WHO or what is ill ?? To be honest with you appart from the sensation and blurriness and headachness there is nothing else that I can find here and now. Let me keep looking. Pulsing sensation in throat. Tension in forehead. Wetness on forehead. Blocked nose and soarness there. Sensation of sugar in back of throat. Sensation of side of the leg with knee of the other leg. Sensation of phone on my hands. Thoughts about trying to find who is ill. Repetition of thought "who is ill?". Slight fever and tiny delirium (more like a spinning head) around the head. Now if I try to find who is ill there is a conjuring and synthesis of past images and stories. When I use to be ill in the past. Should I skip work tomorrow ie thought about the future and the past all happening now. Then coming back to the "symptom" of illness. Zooming in and out of them. Who is ill ? There are sensations but cannot find the something that is ill. Sneezing or about to sneeze. Covering myself. Action of taking the sheet and covering the body to keep it at high temperature and avoid the sneeze. Who did that ? What was it ? A change of color. A sensation of movement. I will keep looking in the coming hours and complete with more.

So the self is created by sensory input and thoughts. Is this accurate ?
The self is these things. It is made of these.

..and have you got a name for this combination ?
Sensation, thought, meta thought. This is a feeling of "I should do the right thing" where the should is defined as a judgement based on a comparison with what language or other or society or Monte Carlo simulation of my future say the right thing should be to increase the probability of my survival by not losing my job.

This whirlpool of combined thoughts and tense feeling is a moral habitual reaction.

The available perspectives are the result of conditions. That is circumstances and the conditioning that experience has given you. This will certainly change as a result of your doing this investigation.

Omg thanks a lot for pointing at this. I got obsessed in the past with "dependent origination teaching" with the upadana (clinging) or oil that keeps the fire burning adding combustible to it.

What you're saying here is precious. It's not that there is no choice it is more that the perspective will naturally change when seen differently when a new angle is authorised. It's not about controlling this but rather about looking at the actual nature of my experience and when seeing it better like an experience mechanics I'll be able to look at the engine differently rather than not knowing anything about it and potentially diagnose wrongly the malfunction of the car! Fantastic !!
This is a bit of a progression, but start with this one; Read the instructions a couple of times, then do it.
Pick something in front of you to look at.
Now as you look at it, notice how the mind wants to describe it. To label it. To label various characteristics of it.
Keep looking until the thoughts slow down. Until they run out of narrative about what you are looking at.
Nice. Reminded me of Zen sitting facing the wall. So looking at my blanket. The interplay of these spot like stuff on it with the shadows. Just color. Black and white and grey. My eyes sweeping between the screen on the phone writing this and the blanket. Different textures. Some folds. Beautiful curve lines. Shades of greys and amazing crevasses like on an ice shaped thingy. But warm and with a soft texture.



Now switch from looking at it, to seeing it.
Notice the impossibility of explaining or describing the subtle aspects of it.
How the color has a particular quality that language cannot convey with any semblance of accuracy.
The raw pure sensation of color. A color appearing now. I can only point to what I think your experience of color is. But if yours was very different I'd had no way of knowing. Going back and forth between blankethe and screen is too tiring let me focus on the color here on the screen the shape of this wood stuff with shades of black and brown melted and brought next to each other. The shape and curves of these letter I'm writing with now. The orange of the options and submit button. I look at the shape of the letter "p" with the round half circle and the vertical line and their connection.
Now ask yourself if there is anywhere a see-er seeing the seen, except as a thought deduction.
A seer ? No. Just colors contrasted colors.

Is there only seeing ?
Only color the experience of seeing. Changing colors.
What are the sensations happening now ?
Sensation are headache. Tension behind eyes, itchy throat, tension on the finger and hands and biceps and shoulder for holding the phone. Sensation of foot on mattress. And knee are also perceived.

Thanks!

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Good evening Seb,
I cannot make the difference between the appearance of a thought and the awareness of it.
In your experience, are they the same thing ?
Could you go as far as to say that there is no thinker of thought (in experiencing) and no such thing as a thought (except as a mental deduction) but there is only thinking ? (include the memory of a thought as thinking)
So now WHO or what is ill ??
This question can only be answered by a mental deduction. By logic.
In experience, is there more than the sensory inputs, and thoughts ABOUT them ?
To be honest with you apart from the sensation and blurriness and headach-ness there is nothing else that I can find here and now.
Ok, that answers my last question.
The self is these things. It is made of these.
Let's be accurate here. The label "Self" points to these things. That is Self is a concept that encompasses these things. Is this accurate ? (in your experience)
This is a feeling of "I should do the right thing"
Is this a sensation or a thought story ?
where the should is defined as a judgement based on a comparison with what language or other or society or Monte Carlo simulation of my future say the right thing should be to increase the probability of my survival by not losing my job.
In other words, it is a story ? (did i interpret this correctly?)
This whirlpool of combined thoughts and tense feeling is a moral habitual reaction.
Would you call this conditioning ?
I'll be able to look at the engine differently rather than not knowing anything about it and potentially diagnose wrongly the malfunction of the car! Fantastic !!
Yes, well put.
To go a little deeper with this, it's not that you will suddenly become a great diagnostician, rather you will stop being a shitty one. Wisdom will prevail. You will know your limits and happily accept that you know nothing. (different to the "not knowing" you mentioned.) ..anyway, more on this later.
Is there only seeing ?
Only color the experience of seeing. Changing colors.
Now come back into the intellectual, into neuroscience. Are you ofé with the research that says that all sensory input is interpreted and expressed in the brain ? eg. there is no sound until the nerve impulse from the mechanism in the ear reaches the brain. The brain then computes where the sound might be coming from then presents the illusion that it comes from there.

love

vince

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:36 pm

Good evening Vince,
In your experience, are they the same thing ?
I don't know Vince. There are some thoughts. I have no idea where they are coming from or why they arise. Or what they are made of. In my head they are made of letters and sounds (a voice inside) sometimes of images a bit more blurry than the direct experience of color (more shapes and less color). These thoughts are perceived. I am conscious of them.
Could you go as far as to say that there is no thinker of thought (in experiencing) and no such thing as a thought (except as a mental deduction) but there is only thinking ? (include the memory of a thought as thinking)
In experience I cannot find a thinker of thoughts. Only thoughts can be found. I have read this "only thinking" before but I honestly don't understand it. I can find a thought or trians of thoughts right here right now. Would you have a pointer to help me see this "only thinking" stuff ? Thanks !

Let's be accurate here. The label "Self" points to these things. That is Self is a concept that encompasses these things. Is this accurate ? (in your experience)
Yes. Self is a concept. A thought.
In other words, it is a story ? (did i interpret this correctly?)
Yes. A story about the future unpleasant experiences that I may have to live through if things go wrong in my life. So for instance a story about a future of unpleasant sensations if I lose my job.

Is this a sensation or a thought story ?
Thought story.


Would you call this conditioning ?
Yes. Conditioning. Programming. Habits. However I'm not sure I understand how this works in direct experience. If I had been implemented with some fake memories of a sets of habits right now. Say I have a memory that smoking is good and I see cigarettes and it makes me want to smoke. A conditioning would be an inference of future pleasure coming up with a memory of past pleasure. Or a memory that I did it many times. I know how to play this musical instrument because I have a memory of how to play it. Hum not clear yet what this means in de. Can you help me see this conditioning?
You will know your limits and happily accept that you know nothing. (different to the "not knowing" you mentioned.) ..anyway, more on this later.
Sounds cool :). Looking forward to see that. So on your end you don't know what a thought or a color is or come from right?

Now come back into the intellectual, into neuroscience. Are you ofé with the research that says that all sensory input is interpreted and expressed in the brain ? eg. there is no sound until the nerve impulse from the mechanism in the ear reaches the brain. The brain then computes where the sound might be coming from then presents the illusion that it comes from there.
Well if I put a virtual reality helmet I would experience color or sound apparently coming from here or there but it's obviously not actually. Now there is no actual difference without the VR. It is the same inputs.

However brain, eyes, sounds are thoughts. What I see is colors and sounds and touch all together right here right now. I have a scientific background though but I see it as a useful model not as how things really are. This we cannot know. If the programmers of the VR change the law of gravity science in the VR will measure a different one not even knowing that all they are measuring is a different slower way for color to move than on earth gravity.

I cannot know if there is a world really appart from as anew inference...

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:11 pm

Good evening Seb,
These thoughts are perceived. I am conscious of them.
Can you see that both of these statement are concepts that point to some experience ?
Can you (try to) say what actually happened in experience ?
Only thoughts can be found.
Would it be more accurate to say that "Only thoughts that are a memory of previous thoughts are happening" ?
Would you have a pointer to help me see this "only thinking" stuff ? Thanks !
In experiencing, is there an experiencer, experiencing an experienced ? ..other than in thoughts ? (don't use logic to find an answer to this. Use memory - or do it again - of the experience of the raw sensation of color)
Hum not clear yet what this means in de. Can you help me see this conditioning?
Don't get to hung up on de. You experienced that with you color experience.
It is useful to see that it exists, and is as close as you can get to what is actual, and that concept arrives immediately to describe/explain it. That concept is, on a practical level, all there is. ...and that no concept can be trusted to be 100% accurate. That some are useful, and most lead you astray.
The spontaneous thoughts that arrive are triggered by habit and circumstances. Our emotions are triggered by these.
Does this resonate with you ?
So on your end you don't know what a thought or a color is or come from right?
Yes. Absolutely. The mystery of life-ing. WonderFull freedom. Openness and acceptance. Surrender to what is offered.
Laugh at opinion (judgement)
I cannot know if there is a world really appart from as anew inference...
Exactly. It all happens in you. It is created and experienced in you. If you grok this, then consider how all is one ?
How can it be that your unique world and my unique world are the same ALL ?

love

vince

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:59 pm

Good evening Vince,

Thank you for your pointers, appreciate :)
Seb-Zero wrote:
"These thoughts are perceived. I am conscious of them."
Vince wrote:
Can you see that both of these statement are concepts that point to some experience ?
Can you (try to) say what actually happened in experience ?
Yes I agree with that. These are concept pointing to the experience of thinking.
What happens in experience is the experience of thinking here and now.
Would it be more accurate to say that "Only thoughts that are a memory of previous thoughts are happening" ?
Yes and no.
No when the thought happens here and now.

Yes when the thought is about a thought that just happened 2 seconds ago.

The "no" above has to be nuanced in the sense that in a way, all thoughts are memory of previous thoughts. In the sense that language is social and belongs to a "public" domain before becoming "private". Only after years of interactions and pointing from my parents was I able to create a map, a correspondance of these terms from the public language more or less accurately mapping my internal experiences.

Appart from brand new words I would decide to create in a poetic neologist kind of attitude ALL words are history. All are memory. And these memories are dynamic of course. The word "prison" would have very different meaning to someone with 10 years experience in prison compared to a little kid who doesn't grok what this could be. Each word has a slightly different meaning for each individual I would say.

In experiencing, is there an experiencer, experiencing an experienced ? ..other than in thoughts ? (don't use logic to find an answer to this. Use memory - or do it again - of the experience of the raw sensation of color)
In experiencing there is only experiencing ie the actual content of sensation/perception that thought are pointing to. Then there are thoughts that are pointing to other thoughts. Like "democracy" or "freedom" which doesn't correspond to actual sensations/perceptions.

So when you say there is only "thinking" you mean there is only the experience of a train of thoughts passing by ? I would agree with that yes. Cannot find an experiencer of thoughts. Just experiencing trains of thoughts.

Don't get to hung up on de. You experienced that with you color experience.
It is useful to see that it exists, and is as close as you can get to what is actual, and that concept arrives immediately to describe/explain it. That concept is, on a practical level, all there is. ...and that no concept can be trusted to be 100% accurate. That some are useful, and most lead you astray.
The spontaneous thoughts that arrive are triggered by habit and circumstances. Our emotions are triggered by these.
Does this resonate with you ?
I definitly resonate with what you said earlier : "The available perspectives are the result of conditions. That is circumstances and the conditioning that experience has given you. This will certainly change as a result of your doing this investigation."

However this also point with some form of cause and effect. ie that the habit is the cause of the thought arising. I do somehow believe in some form of cause and effect (dependent origination in buddhism). But it is just that. A belief.

I think I may need a new way to focus and look than DE to be able to grokk this deeper. In DE, there is no cause and effect. Only a thought would say that "The spontaneous thoughts that arrive are triggered by habit and circumstances" but in actual experience I cannot verify it here and now. I reached a kind of limit here. Are there anything you can point to me to help me see through that and put together no cause/effect and habits/conditioning.

There seem to be a deep contradiction that I cannot get my head around... Thanks !
Seb-Zero wrote:
I cannot know if there is a world really appart from as anew inference...
Exactly. It all happens in you. It is created and experienced in you. If you grok this, then consider how all is one ?
How can it be that your unique world and my unique world are the same ALL ?
Not sure if all is one. I can only know the experience on "this side of the equation" so to speak and this experience appears to be whole for sure. Cannot find a separation here. My hand and the table on which it is are both colors in my visual field (my experience of seeing). I imagine that you may have also access to thoughts, sensations and perceptions but I have no proof of it. My only experience of you is just these letter on the screen. All the rest is implied and inferred by thoughts. And in this experience both Seb and Vince are appearances that I am aware of. Now is this "I" shared or not I have no clue...

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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:09 pm

Good evening Seb,
What happens in experience is the experience of thinking here and now
..and is this experience happening to someone/thing ?
I do somehow believe in some form of cause and effect (dependent origination in buddhism). But it is just that. A belief.
Yes, these are good stories, and useful for communication. ..but as you say, they are concepts that are believed (by most people)
Are there anything you can point to me to help me see through that and put together no cause/effect and habits/conditioning.
Are you saying that you get particularly hung up on these beliefs ?
How things actually work is a mystery. If we accept that and surrender to what life-ing offers, then we recognize that these concepts have a certain usefulness, but internally we are open to discover alternative possibilities.
Maybe we need to examine what a belief is and how it works ? What are your ideas on this ?
but in actual experience I cannot verify it here and now.
What is being verified is that it is concept. Story.
The result of this is that it has no inherent credibility.
There seem to be a deep contradiction that I cannot get my head around...
Is it more than the obsessive mind that wants an explanation ? Do you need to get your head around it ? What will change if you do ?
Not sure if all is one. I can only know the experience on "this side of the equation" so to speak and this experience appears to be whole for sure. Cannot find a separation here. My hand and the table on which it is are both colors in my visual field (my experience of seeing). I imagine that you may have also access to thoughts, sensations and perceptions but I have no proof of it. My only experience of you is just these letter on the screen. All the rest is implied and inferred by thoughts. And in this experience both Seb and Vince are appearances that I am aware of. Now is this "I" shared or not I have no clue...
Yes you do. You say it clearly. "Cannot find a separation here."
To play with this a bit more (on an intellectual level) Consider that if any experience that you have ever had, was different, then the Seb organism as it is now, would be different.
Now consider that every experience that you have had, in itself, was dependent on many conditions. So if any of them were different then the experience would be different.
Now go to any of the necessary conditions themselves had a change of circumstances, then they would be different.
This can extend to the nature of a dinosaur fart. If it happened differently then Seb wouldn't be as he is now.
There is nothing that ever existed (or didn't exist) that could be changed, that wouldn't have resulted in you being different.
It is a great story. ..and useful to exemplify the interdependence of everything. None of which can be verified in experience.
i guess that nobody experiences oneness. Just THIS.

love

vince

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Seb-Zero
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Re: Understanding Perceptions & sensations

Postby Seb-Zero » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:46 pm

'Evening Vince,
..and is this experience happening to someone/thing ?
Nope. Nothing that can be found.
Are you saying that you get particularly hung up on these beliefs ?
How things actually work is a mystery. If we accept that and surrender to what life-ing offers, then we recognize that these concepts have a certain usefulness, but internally we are open to discover alternative possibilities.
Really appreciate your reply here ! Beautifully put :) :)
I have to confess I used to be hung up on them. Trying to make sense of these to the point that I read everything I could get my hand on about dependent origination (cf extract in quote (*) at the end of the post if you have spare time to read or in case you'd be interested in that model).

But now I more and more see these as simply pragmatic tools to help us deal with the world in a conventional way. These are models, simply models. A paradigm that is valid up to a point and then simply breaks in face of what is actually there.

I really really enjoyed what you said there : "if we accept that and surrender to what life-ing offers, then we recognize that these concepts have a certain usefulness, but internally we are open to discover alternative possibilities". Yes. How it actually is is not like in the representational model. It is what it is.

Maybe we need to examine what a belief is and how it works ? What are your ideas on this ?
Yes please. What is a belief ??
Say for instance I say that I say that "I believe I am breathing air".
How thought is going to go about this ? Thought is going to find evidence for air (sensation that is labelled "breathing"). So a belief looks like a thought about other thought that are pointing to sensations. The thought organize them together then compares to other thoughts to check their validity. So there is a belief for instance that I am a body that is breathing "air" through lungs. As a proof I have a pointer to the sensation of breathing. The sensation of breathing doesn't tell me anything about air or a separate body. It just comes and go and change. The rest the separate units are implied and inferred as THOUGHTS here and now too. Therefore a belief looks like a thought about other thoughts that I am aware of as part of the process of thinking.

If I say that I believe that you are experiencing thoughts and visuals I don't have access to. This belief is a thought about you. I am aware of this thought. It may be true. It may be not true. I have no way of ever knowing either way !!! In direct experience there is no separation. In direct experience there is this continuous flow of sensations and perception and the memory of flows of sensations of perceptions.

The memory may make me believe there was a past. But the memory is arising now. The memory could tell me anything really:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98195&page=1

At the opening moment of a dream a whole memory of me and "my" environment is created. The me of the dream all the dream element are all made of mind. The memory too. Like in the movie Dark City when John Murodoch see the burn is not there !!!

So if I believe that this person is a friend. This is a thought. About a sensation and a qualificatif. It is like I contract or synthetise an entire person from a series of sensations and perception and then put a label on it. Or rather a thought appears to me with a label. Now if this person "betrays" me it just means that the series of sensations and perceptions (sounds, visuals) does not behave as predicted by the predictive algorithm "friendly behavior". Nothing happened really. Just the contracted/synthetized person was always an artifical construct I got attached to (or so say the thought and the sensation of betrayal felt).

Hum I think I kind of understood the basis of it.

Would you have more pointers maybe to make me explore "belief" and how they work further ? What's your take on this ?


What is being verified is that it is concept. Story.
The result of this is that it has no inherent credibility.
Yes yes yes. It is simply undecided. Could be right could be wrong. No way of saying.
Seb said : There seem to be a deep contradiction that I cannot get my head around...
Is it more than the obsessive mind that wants an explanation ?
Hum...Could we examine what "obsessive" mind could be ? Obsessive mind would be a thought arising now demanding an explanation and explication for everything that happens or seems to happen.
Now this thought apparently triggers (or does it ?Impossible to say for sure) a sensation of frustration of not knowing. This sensation is perfectly known. So is the thought that demands an explication.
Do you need to get your head around it ?
I have no head :)
And no need to get it around no.
What will change if you do ?
Ahah the pursuit of knowledge has kept me night awake reading about philosophy and science and spirituality looking for this ultimate knowledge that would free me from unknowing and ignorance. I start to doubt more and more that a bunch of word on paper or screen could ever explicate anything to me. Not even Ramana or Eugene Gendlin or Einstein or Deleuze or Sellars or Whitehead or McDowell or Bob the Sailor and Paul Hedderman and Rupert Spira or Francis Lucille or Greg Good or Mooji or Dan the great guru basher and the Joey Lott who tries too hard or other cool appearances that project cool models and paradigms in books and talks here and now. I am aware of their sounds and words. What would change with more words and thoughts ? Just more thoughts about other thoughts that would look cool and logically link. Or so another thought arising now would say. Or not say so :)


Yes you do. You say it clearly. "Cannot find a separation here."

To play with this a bit more (on an intellectual level) Consider that if any experience that you have ever had, was different, then the Seb organism as it is now, would be different.
Now consider that every experience that you have had, in itself, was dependent on many conditions. So if any of them were different then the experience would be different.
Now go to any of the necessary conditions themselves had a change of circumstances, then they would be different.
This can extend to the nature of a dinosaur fart. If it happened differently then Seb wouldn't be as he is now.
There is nothing that ever existed (or didn't exist) that could be changed, that wouldn't have resulted in you being different.
It is a great story. ..and useful to exemplify the interdependence of everything. None of which can be verified in experience.
i guess that nobody experiences oneness. Just THIS.
Thank you so much Vince !!! Loved reading this story :) :)

I start to feel that buddhist stories are quite cool too :
(and there is no need to cling to them too)


A nice story about cause and effect : paticca samuppada (buddhist model)

http://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppada ... -to-bhava/


(*)
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/wings.pdf
From the commentary of the Pali Canon sorry for the digression :A few general points about dependent co-arising are important to understand before going into the details.
To begin with, dependent co-arising is often presented in the texts as an expansion of the general principle of this/that conditionality [§211], which we have already discussed in the Introduction. Here we will recapitulate some of the essential points. This/that conditionality is expressed in a simple formula:
1)When this is, that is.
2)From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
3)When this isn't, that isn't.
4)From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that.
This formula is non-linear, an interplay of linear and synchronic principles. The linear principle — taking (2) and (4) as a pair — connects events over time; the synchronic principle — (1) and (3) — connects objects and events in the present moment. The two principles intersect, so that any given event is influenced by two sets of conditions, those acting from the past and those acting from the present.
Because this is the pattern underlying dependent co-arising, it is a mistake to view dependent co-arising simply as a chain of causes strung out over time. Events in any one category of the list are affected not only by past events in the categories that act as their conditions, but also by the on-going, interacting presence of whole streams of events in those categories. All categories can be present at once, and even though two particular conditions may be separated by several steps in the list, they can be immediately present to each other.
Thus they can create the possibility for unexpected feedback loops in the causal process. Feeling, for instance, keeps reappearing at several stages in the process, and ignorance can contribute to any causal link at any time. The importance of these points will become clear when we examine how to disengage the causal network so as to realize the third noble truth.
Because new input into the causal stream is possible at every moment, the actual working out of this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising can be remarkably fluid and complex. This point is borne out by the imagery used in the Canon to illustrate these teachings.
Although some non-canonical texts depict dependent co-arising as a circle or a wheel of causes — implying something of a mechanical, deterministic process — the Canon never uses that image at all. Instead it likens dependent co-arising to water flowing over land: lakes overflow, filling rivers, which in turn fill the sea [§238]; while the tides of the sea rise, swelling the rivers, which in turn swell the lakes [SN 12:69].
This imagery captures something of the flow of give and take among the factors of the process. A more modern pattern that might be used to illustrate dependent co-arising is the "strange attractor": an intricate, interwoven pattern that chaos theory uses to describe complex, fluid systems containing at least three feedback loops. As we will see below, the number of feedback loops in dependent co-arising is far more than three."


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