what is going on

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warissem
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what is going on

Postby warissem » Tue May 29, 2012 11:53 am

There is no "I" in any shape or form in the objective world. There is no "me", no self to be found. What we call a self is a collection of memories about the past and the collection of the worries and esperances of the future. There is no yesterday nor tomorrow outside of thoughts.Yes, this body is alive, there are sensations, feelings, ... There are perceptions of colors, shapes, sounds, ... The mind is a producing machine of thoughts which give many alternatives of answers to a situation. The mind is also a labeling machine. We call it "mind" but we know there is no mind. The situation is that when I read the threads of this forum, it seems that they are liberated ones and there is realisation of the true nature. When I read advaita texts, some teachers say it can be a sudden realisation, others say realisation needs time after the awakening (it took three years to Nisargadatta to stabilize on the true nature). These two approaches are OK, but there is a confusion between :

- Seeing the no self : seeing with certainty that there is no separate entity living in the body, seeing that "I", me, you, ... are only concepts appearing in awareness (whatever it is which reading these words).
- Realising the no self or stabilising as awareness : being as the wholeness, oneness ("the world is in ME" as Nisargadatta said).

When I read some threads in this forum : they say, Life is Life-ing, that means the realisation of onenes occured. Here in my side, this has not occured. Do I miss something ?

Thanks, nour

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Tue May 29, 2012 7:40 pm

Hello Nour,
When I read some threads in this forum : they say, Life is Life-ing, that means the realisation of oneness occured. Here in my side, this has not occurred. Do I miss something ?
When you say oneness what's meant by that?

Let's forget what you have read and heard and just look into your actual experience and answer honestly with your own words.

Regards,
El

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Tue May 29, 2012 9:26 pm

Hi
Thank you for your answer, glad to hear from you.
You said :
[quote][/quote]"When you say oneness what's meant by that?"

From what is experienced right now, I cannot give an answer. But I had an experience of what is meant as oneness, wholeness. There was an experience where there was no center, where I was the entire space and all what the senses perceive is in this space, this experience is like Nisargadatta said it " the world is in ME". I call it "experience" because it lasted about two hours : the sole name I can give to it is Beautiful. The experience fades and the ordinary living takes place. From that experience, there is wanting to go to that experience, to that peace. Right now, when I am writing these words, I understand that it was an experience and there is no one to go anywhere.

Now we finish with the story of the experience whatever it was. Right now, can I give an answer about oneness without leaning on the knowing (books, articles, ...). Can I give an answer which is brought from the here now. What is oneness ? I don't know. There is no word which is brought here now.

I can speak about what is going on right now. There is awareness (whatever is reading these words) which knows itself as what it is. But, there is still a feeling of separation which results from identification of awareness to this body mind. There are still egotic reactions to the environment. There is still this feeling of me here and the world out there.

Warm regards, nour

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Wed May 30, 2012 8:41 am

Right now, when I am writing these words, I understand that it was an experience and there is no one to go anywhere.
Great understanding! :)
Experiences come and go. Life stays and vibrates always in new ways.
But of course some experiences are kind of special and seem to have great influence on further life flow. So is with such mystical experiences.

How about that world is always in „ME“? Not „me“ which is just a thought, but in life, in this aliveness, awareness, which is not personal and better not called me, but feels most intimate and known that some express it that way.

Can you right now in actual experience determine the border between you and the rest of life? Isn’t it just one unitary experience, perception with no borders; There are just those borders which thoughts tell for the purpose of creating “your” life story?
What is oneness? I don't know. There is no word which is brought here now.
So oneness is just a concept in mind as everything else unless it is experienced, really known.
No need to try to chase concepts. Just look into your experience as wrote above; here and now and describe it.
It is like throwing the map and exploring the territory by yourself, than you can compare what you have found with maps that others left.
I can speak about what is going on right now.
Good.
There is awareness (whatever is reading these words) which knows itself as what it is.
What it is?
But, there is still a feeling of separation which results from identification of awareness to this body mind. There are still egoic reactions to the environment.
This is not what is directly perceived right now. It is a story about what is going on using some learned words and definitions. Ok?
Can you see the difference between what is really perceived and story about it.
This investigation is all about that. To look and see difference and see if in direct experience is some little “I” separate from the rest of the life.

Many greetings,
El

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Wed May 30, 2012 11:49 am

Hi eloratea
“Can you right now in actual experience determine the border between you and the rest of life? Isn’t it just one unitary experience, perception with no borders; There are just those borders which thoughts tell for the purpose of creating “your” life story? “

The problem resides in this “me”. What is it ?
Right now, as I said in the previous post, there is still identification with this body : when I say “me”, it means this body mind. At that point, there is separation between “me”, this body and the world, all what is perceived.

Oneness is a concept which points to nothing in particular. I keep the question going on “what is oneness” : there is no answer, there is silence and bodily sensations, warmth in the heart, sensation of love, peace. When I was walking this morning, this question leads the focus to the presence here now, to this being, to this moving of what is called a body.

“There is awareness (whatever is reading these words) which knows itself as what it is.
What it is?”

Awareness is a concept pointing to nothing objective. There is this presence, knowing, being here now. It is known by itself right now. It cannot be described, the five senses cannot grasp it. We cannot avoid it, we cannot escape from it.
What is awareness ? there is no answer brought by the words. The answer is here now : this aliveness, this presence, this knowing.

“Can you see the difference between what is really perceived and story about it.
This investigation is all about that. To look and see difference and see if in direct experience is some little “I” separate from the rest of the life. “

Yes I see clearly the difference between what is perceived in what is called objective world and the story about it. There is no “I” in any shape or form which accompanies this body. "I" is seen as a concept which points to nothing to no object. It is non existant. It serves only for communication. But when someone directs to "me", I react as this body mind complex. There is a habit of a "me" as this body mind. It is a feeling, it is not about thoughts. You can say that a feeling is a feeling, it is not me. But when someone provocates me, I react. There are objects which belong to me : a car, a house, a bank account, ... I cannot say they belong to no one. Here lies the confusion.

warm regards, nour

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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Wed May 30, 2012 5:08 pm

Hello Nour,
The problem resides in this “me”. What is it ?
Right now, as I said in the previous post, there is still identification with this body : when I say “me”, it means this body mind. At that point, there is separation between “me”, this body and the world, all what is perceived.
Are you body-mind? And what is mind?
Oneness is a concept which points to nothing in particular. I keep the question going on “what is oneness” : there is no answer, there is silence and bodily sensations, warmth in the heart, sensation of love, peace. When I was walking this morning, this question leads the focus to the presence here now, to this being, to this moving of what is called a body.
Nice, that is some first hand experiencing.
Awareness is a concept pointing to nothing objective. There is this presence, knowing, being here now. It is known by itself right now. It cannot be described, the five senses cannot grasp it. We cannot avoid it, we cannot escape from it.
What is awareness ? there is no answer brought by the words. The answer is here now : this aliveness, this presence, this knowing.
Is there us to escape from aliveness?

Yes I see clearly the difference between what is perceived in what is called objective world and the story about it. There is no “I” in any shape or form which accompanies this body. "I" is seen as a concept which points to nothing to no object. It is non existant. It serves only for communication. But when someone directs to "me", I react as this body mind complex. There is a habit of a "me" as this body mind. It is a feeling, it is not about thoughts. You can say that a feeling is a feeling, it is not me. But when someone provocates me, I react.
Do you react, or reaction happens based on programming?
Is there you to be hurt, or just body can be heart and it has some inbuilt protective mechanisms?
There are objects which belong to me: a car, a house, a bank account, ... I cannot say they belong to no one. Here lies the confusion.
You don't need to say that they belong to no one, but, when you look, what is more accurate to say:
my car or a car?

p.s. if you have troubles with using quote function here is help :)
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Wed May 30, 2012 6:02 pm

Hello Eloratea
“Are you body-mind? And what is mind?”
“I” is a concept, it is not a body nor a mind. When I use “I”, it refers to this presence which is seeing these words. I am not the body, the body is seen as a shape and colors, is felt as sensations. The mind is thoughts, I said already that the mind does not exist as such.
“Is there us to escape from aliveness?”
I was expecting this question, the “we” is just a way of communicating. There is no us, no me to escape form aliveness, awareness, presence.
“Do you react, or reaction happens based on programming?
Is there you to be hurt, or just body can be heart and it has some inbuilt protective mechanisms?”
Yes reaction happen based on the conditionings. There is no me to be hurt, I does not exist, it cannot be hurt.
“You don't need to say that they belong to no one, but, when you look, what is more accurate to say:
my car or a car?”
I can say a car : but there is a car which I drive, I have the keys, the documents are in this name not another name. I cannot go drive another car. I don’t understand how can I drop the belonging link

Warm regards, nour

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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Wed May 30, 2012 8:50 pm

I can say a car : but there is a car which I drive, I have the keys, the documents are in this name not another name. I cannot go drive another car. I don’t understand how can I drop the belonging link
No need to drop anything just see that possessing is also just a concept created for the purpose of life stories.

Could you explain what is illusion of separate self and how it works?

Greetings,
El

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Thu May 31, 2012 2:55 pm

Hi Eloratea
"Could you explain what is illusion of separate self and how it works?"
The self does not exist. It is a collection of past stories, experiments, emotions, feelings. It is also built by conditionnings (cultural, social, religious, political, ...). It is also wishes of the future which exist only as thoughts. It is memories about pleasure and pain, images, ... All this is built on nothing. It has no ground to stand on.
How the self works? Can we ask a question about something which do not exist? Can you tell me what is the weight of the white elephant in your room? No.

What is going on :
Presence knowing these words on the screen, knowing the hearing of the sounds around, knowing the hearing of the heart beat, of the breathe, knowing these bodily sensations. There cannot be other than this presence, awareness, whatever it is called. There cannot be a phantom replacing the obvious.I am this presence and it cannot be otherwise.

Warm regards, nour

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Thu May 31, 2012 5:18 pm

How does it feel to see through the illusion of separate self?
Was there something distinguishable that made you see it?

How would you describe it to someone ho hasn't heard about it?

Warm Greetings,
El

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Thu May 31, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi eloratea
"How does it feel to see through the illusion of separate self?
Was there something distinguishable that made you see it?"
I have seen the illusion of separate self about a year ago when it was RT forum. As I said in the first post, I was wondering about “life is life –ing” assumptions which I encounter in the threads of this LU forum. It seems that there is a sudden realization of the true nature. When I read some threads, I understand that awareness recognizes itself and then suddenly all beliefs fall down. Then there is no separateness, life is life-ing, … I said it is not the case here. Awareness, this presence knowing recognizes itself as what it is but there are still beliefs which need to be seen as the no self has been seen. There is still a process of dis – identification taking place. This seeing of no self is a beginning not an end.
"How would you describe it to someone who hasn't heard about it?"
1) What is reality for you? This question will permit to know if he makes difference between what is real and what is not real. I will explain that what is real (objective) can be seen by the five senses.
2) Do you know thoughts ? I will bring him to look at thoughts, their arising, their floating like clouds in the sky.
3) Observe thoughts : what is real in them? Which are the thoughts or concepts or images which point to the objective reality and which are blind thoughts which point to nothing.
4) What is you (I, me), the self ? a description of the self is expected and a little push to make him see that the self and all its constituants are only blind thoughts.

Warm regards, nour

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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Thu May 31, 2012 7:50 pm

Then there is no separateness, life is life-ing, … I said it is not the case here. Awareness, this presence knowing recognizes itself as what it is but there are still beliefs which need to be seen as the no self has been seen. There is still a process of dis – identification taking place. This seeing of no self is a beginning not an end.
Sure Nour, it is not the end.

Can you tell me what does it mean for you that life is life-ing? And what is not the case there?

Regards!

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:40 pm

Hi Eloratea,
What means life is life-ing? Life is this aliveness of objects, vegetals, animals, human. Death is when life ceases to animate these objects. Life and death are in this presence awareness like light and darkeness. Sure there is no separateness, sure there is one without a second. But it is not the experience of right now. I lean only on what is right now, I don't want to figure out things. There is still need to investigate. There is still sensibility to provocation to the me, there is still a tendancy to react from conditionning but I see it clearly. There is still feeling of "me" made of a collection of conditionnings and a certain tendancy to react through that. It is like a "force d'inertie".

I need advice to go through all that
Best wishes, nour

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:17 am

There is still sensibility to provocation to the me, there is still a tendancy to react from conditionning but I see it clearly. There is still feeling of "me" made of a collection of conditionnings and a certain tendancy to react through that. It is like a "force d'inertie".
Conditioning doesn't drop all at once. Of course there are some useful conditionings.
But those that are seen as not needed anymore (usually based on belief in separate self) are dissolving upon seeing them as such. One by one, as there are seen in action in everyday experience they disappear. Seeing is like introducing light and darkness disappears as by itself.
There is possibility in any situation to look and see if there is you. And it changes perspective.

Some sense of self always stay in some way in background. I think it is how it works in current human experience.
But it is often reported more relaxation and surrender to life flow.

Are there some doubts about existence of you as a separate self?
Any other expectations or fears?

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:52 am

Hi Elarotea
"Are there some doubts about existence of you as a separate self?
Any other expectations or fears?"
No there is no belief at the existence of a separate self. But it is as I was expecting something to happen (you will say ; is there "I" which is expecting?). No there is no I which is expecting things to happen or freedom or liberation. I expect an insight which let fall all the beliefs at once, a complete realization of no self, a liberation from "me", from conditionnings, from fears, from egotic reactions. There is a movement between Sharbyde and Shylla as we say. Between presence knowing which knows itself as what it is and the old habits of reacting through beliefs. Yes there are fears which report to the body : fear of death for example. That is why I said that the realization of no self is not complete.

Warm regards, nour


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