Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:17 am

Hi Tim!

You've been writing long answers on a phone? Amazing patience!
Your last post seems very clear to me, what you're saying resonates here. Thank you for taking the time to find other words to express what you were trying to say. Talking about these stuff is tricky!

Would you say that at this point you know how to see the difference between what is the present experience and the thought commentary? Did anything change since we start talking? Do you think there is something missing? Are you still seeking?

Big hug,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:22 am

Hi Sandra,

Interesting times! Family interactions at this time of the year! Read somewhere "if you think you are enlightened, go home to your family and find out!!

So this picture I had shifted my perception (took of another layer). This new perception leads to a sense of awe and smiling. Put to the "test" with loved ones, is testing!! Found myself pulled to be the story character and than "I" was observing the situation rather than being in it. So same as with thoughts or sensations, this hypnotizing pull to be the I.
Would you say that at this point you know how to see the difference between what is the present experience and the thought commentary?
This question makes sense now. Wouldnt have a week ago. So I can answer with a "cautious" yes, because this is new?! The way I experience this "new" way of seeing reminds me of the grieving process!! The "mind" has a hard time accepting the new "reality". One goes about life the ordinary way, and all of the sudden the changed circumstances come to awesomeness. In this case it the feeling of "positive" overwhelm!!

So the thought process are literally like listening to the radio. The Narration is going steady, and now it's kind of funny to listen in. Makes me smile all the time! So after 10 years of cultivating a relationship with the Narrator, finally finding out there is no body there but only noise is very interesting!!
? Did anything change since we start talking?
Everything has!! With this finale piece of understanding everything "looks" different, because looking is different.
Are you still seeking?
Hmmm?? Straight answer no. Seeking stopped for me about 6 years ago, when I had to choose between my search and my family. Easy decision! Than it turned out, that "giving up" seeking turned into the most potent learning experience ever. To make a long story short, I have become so much more aware than any seeking could have given. So I have remainders left of what is a sense of knowing. Now it's not even an urge anymore, because there is that experiential understanding that if the are more layers to be dropped, it will happen. No personal effort required, or better yet no such entity to slow down whatever else might or might not come to light.
Do you think there is something missing
Not missing, as in there needs to be more! Yet there is this sense that there are more layers. From where i was 30 years ago, compared to 10 years ago to now I can in hindsight realize an awakening process, that I didn't start nor did I actually do something consciously. One of the repeting experiences that I made was at times a shift of perception (aka another layer of), followed eventually by the realization that this "new" understanding had become the new limitation. In other words an old belief replaced by a new belief that than turned out to be just as much a belief (limition/illusion) just on a "higher" level!

So it is clear that this new picture, is a new belief. It replaced the old one of being a seperate self.

So with this in mind, I get the sense that there will be more layers.

So if you have some more time for me and that doesn't go above your mandate, I would like to use our inquiry towards the physical construct.
If what you usually are is a construct, its boundaries - if questioned - can seem to start expanding or contracting.
So with thoughts and emotions I'm experiencing the observer state. The physical appears to be just as challenging as the mental state use to be. Is this something you can guide me with?

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Hi Tim,

Families are chalenging indeed :)
Thank you for your answers.
So with thoughts and emotions I'm experiencing the observer state. The physical appears to be just as challenging as the mental state to use. Is this something you can guide me with?
Do you see with 100% certainty that the self is an illusion? If you do and you would like to have some help questioning other illusions, I suggest that first you have a go at answering LU six standard final questions as a way to check if we missed something. If all is clear, you will be invited to join the LU community where there are some people who guide in the further investigation forum. One of them can help you explore further. I do not do further guiding.

So please let me know if you have no doubts regarding the self illusion and are ready to move on, or if these challenges of physicallity are connected with the believe in a separate self. If that's the case we can look at them, just let me know what these challenges are.

Hug,
S

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:08 pm

Hi Tim,

Families are chalenging indeed :)
Thank you for your answers.
So with thoughts and emotions I'm experiencing the observer state. The physical appears to be just as challenging as the mental state to use. Is this something you can guide me with?
Do you see with 100% certainty that the self is an illusion? If you do and you would like to have some help questioning other illusions, I suggest that first you have a go at answering LU six standard final questions as a way to check if we missed something. If all is clear, you will be invited to join the LU community where there are some people who guide in the further investigation forum. One of them can help you explore further. I do not do further guiding.

So please let me know if you have no doubts regarding the self illusion and are ready to move on, or if these challenges of physicallity are connected with the believe in a separate self. If that's the case we can look at them, just let me know what these challenges are.

Hug,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:19 am

Hello Sandra,

Hmmm another surprise!! Thx. Ya this one almost got away, but than of course not!! Without ur unique guidance, this i would have stayed unrecognized.

So yes the physical experience are related the the belief of I! I do have the sense of being this body.

So the first realization was that the intense/painfull body sensations cause the sense of I am this body. But of course nobody there, just like thoughts. So these sensations are not cause by somebody and there is nobody there to "have" them. So applying the same method as to thoughts, it became evident, that there still is a belief of I somewhere.

Than the realization occurred, that if not caused and not effecting, why are they being experienced. So with the thoughts/emotions I was able to do the inquiry, accepting the first realization and not having to question where do thought come from. Body experiences seem more "real", maybe that's the reason for the why and how? This definitely reminds me of the beginning of our inquiry with the thought. I couldn't "get" it until I looked.

So, yes pls let's keep pocking!!

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:04 am

Dear Tim,
I do have the sense of being this body.
It is very normal to identify with the body - we aren't trying to change or end this identification or the sensation of being "me", we are simply looking for evidence that there is a you that is the body.

If you poke an arm with a finger, will you be poking a you?

When sounds are being perceived, do you find any evidence that the body has a little you inside hearing the sounds?

When colors are being perceived, do you find any evidence that the body has a little you inside seeing colors?

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:34 pm

Dear Sandra,

Hmmm, interesting. Another surprise!!

I might have taken the inquiry beyond its intended boundaries?!
It is very normal to identify with the body
Absolutely normal, but is this identification the truth?
we are simply looking for evidence that there is a you that is the body.
Do I read u saying that the you is the body? So what is the belief in a separate self, whose none existence we r trying to recognize by looking? The thought I, the emotion I? If so, how is the physical I different or the truth?

Separate from what?
If you poke an arm with a finger, will you be poking a you?
There will be something poked! No evidence of a you, because if I poke a tree, just another poking. So the poking is not evidence nor is the object that is being poked. That would be the same as using breathing as the evidence. Like I'm breathing, which could be use as evidence, until recognized that one is being breathed. Same applies to poking, does it not?
When sounds are being perceived, do you find any evidence that the body has a little you inside hearing the sounds?
No evidence of or a little you, but no evidence of a body either. Only evidence is the perception.

Always greatful for any way ur guidance may take.

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:26 am

Hi Tim,
I might have taken the inquiry beyond its intended boundaries?!
I don't think so :)
Absolutely normal, but is this identification the truth?
How would you answer this question?
Do I read u saying that the you is the body? So what is the belief in a separate self, whose none existence we r trying to recognize by looking? The thought I, the emotion I? If so, how is the physical I different or the truth?

Separate from what?
I'm asking if you can find evidence that there is a you that is the body. Can you?
There will be something poked! No evidence of a you, because if I poke a tree, just another poking. So the poking is not evidence nor is the object that is being poked. That would be the same as using breathing as the evidence. Like I'm breathing, which could be use as evidence, until recognized that one is being breathed. Same applies to poking, does it not?
How is one being breathed? What is this one?

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:26 am

Dear Sandra,

Thx for making absolutely certain that the belief in an I is completely surrendered!!
How would you answer this question?
Yes it "feels" normal, but so does the thought and emotional sense of I. If this is all that is known, it's normal. It isn't the truth, it's rather an experience of perception. A potential to be experienced, but not the truth. The truth is that one isn't in a body, of a body or the body. So this identification is a misidentification. In other words an illusion.
'm asking if you can find evidence that there is a you that is the body. Can you?

Evidence of any "me" cannot be found. Only things found are a form (body), sensations, emotions and thoughts. No entity.
How is one being breathed? What is this one?
There is a form being breathed. This form (that I call my body) is the very same form as a tree. The tree is a biological form, so is "my" body, tree and this form are being breathed without an "breather" in the inside. So the body released from all aspects of an belief in a doer is just like a tree.

So this one is what is left "standing" after the illusion. And since it is equally in(?)the tree and in(?) the human body it couldn't be an I. More like and all inclusive intelligence that breathes beings.

How are beings being breathed, and for that matter how is everything else happening ?? Don't know!!

Gratefully, Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:01 pm

Hi Tim!

That's a very clear post. Thanks :)
How are beings being breathed, and for that matter how is everything else happening ?? Don't know!!
How would you answer this below question?

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Give examples from experience.

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:05 pm

Dear Sandra,

Hmm, yesterday's post was another surprise!!

There was response to intention and responsibility. Took all of the experiences of yesterday, put into our inquiry perspective, to get a clear picture of the residue of a doer!!
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control
This are all different aspects of the same belief that there is a doer that has some kind of a will and that it's apparent actions have a meaning. So it's actually the other way around. Actions happen (with "looking" clearly not by personalized entity) that are taken "personally" by an experiencer. This unawareness of a split between action and actor leads to the experience of an I. So all the above mentioned actions, when investigated like the breath example, are recognized as an apparent action take by an ilusive entity.
What makes things happen?
There is an order to things, that makes Life possible. This Life Intelligence is the "hidden" responsibility behind every aspect of our actions. So just like we are being breathed, we could take this further to the understanding that we are being lived! Being lived makes a separate entity unnecessary and actually impossible.
How does it work?
An all inclusive, all knowing Intelligence is beyond my words.
What are you responsible for?
When the recognition, has sunk in completely,that the form that has been called my body is being lived, just like is has been breathed, than there is no potential for being responsible. Since there is nobody there to do anything!

So yesterday gave the perfect experience. Even though the topic for day was know from your post, the circumstances of the day gave the strongest impression of being a participant, not an actor with any kind of "power". No approval or disapproval of "me" was possible or for that matter necessary for the day to happen. Resistance to what was left me absolutely exhausted, but it couldn't have been clearer that I don't have
decision, intention, free will, choice and control
Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:55 am

Hi Tim! Thank you for your answers.

Although you say this:
So all the above mentioned actions, when investigated like the breath example, are recognized as an apparent action take by an ilusive entity.
You also say this:
this unawareness of a split between action and actor leads to the experience of an I.
Let's do a pointing exercise.
Right now we can say "I am looking at the phone screen"
Is this thought true?
Is it possible to find a split between 3 things: the actor (subject), the seeing (verb) and the seen (object)?
Can you find, see, point with a finger to any seams, boundaries, separation?
Is there a split that can lead to the experience of an I?
Share what you find :)

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:35 pm

Dear Sandra,

Yes I didn't express it the right way. So thx for ur exercise, which was very interesting.
Is this thought true
Yes, that is the present experience. I see phone!

So when I investigate if there is a separation between the three, there isn't any to find. It's more like a transfer of attention from subject to action to object. Attention flows "freely" back and forth between them. So no boundaries between them. It's like the day change. It turns from night to day without an interruption.

Two things were interesting. First, depending on where the attention rested, it lessened or even excluded the other two. For example a newborn baby, not knowing it's surroundings and it's own body, would have its attention on seeing, to the exclusion of the other two. A painter in the flow, would have main attention on the painting, to the exclusion of the other. Or when focused attention is on the I, it excludes as well. So the sense of I is when the pendulum is "stuck" on the subject.



Second thing was, that there was another "element" present. While doing the exercise, noticing the attention flow back and forth and noticing that one of the three was always "heightened" according to how much attention it got, there was this element of noticing all of this independent of the other. Even when attention went elsewhere, this being aware was still there!

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:37 pm

Dear Tim, thank you for your nice answers. It's so good to see that you are enjoying exploring your experience!

Sorry for the delayed reply and wishes of happy holidays! Next week I'm on vacation and my replys may be sporadic until January 2.

Regarding attention, it seems from your post that there is a sort of a you that can notice and direct attention. This suggests a model of awareness that it is a bit like a flashlight – it can be wielded by some entity so that its light moves around and shines here, now there.

Let’s look to see if this is true. What is “attention” in direct experience? Does it really move around. Is it a thing/activity that “you” can direct? If I say “Hey look over here” – is there a “you” that turns attention? How does looking happen?

Big hug,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:06 pm

Dear Sandra, no worries about any "delays?!". You are right, about this stage I find myself in. The "heat" is of to get something from the exploration. With that ever time there is a looking "past" another layer the is a sense of recognition. Part of this recognition is that there is no rush or even a need for these insights. That alone is liberation!! The end of searching??? So when ever you have a chance to respond or not, just fine!!

Also, the "dawning" appears to take longer. What I mean by that is, that earlier on your inquiries where always met with a kind of mental blankness (besides other sensations). This blankness appears to persist longer now until there is the "sudden" un blankness (aka recognition) of where your questions are pointing at. At the beginning of our inquiry there was lots of mental action to get to this point, now it's more a softening of mind, with this knowing that the recognition will occur without a "personal effort".
This suggests a model of awareness that it is a bit like a flashlight
So in my last post I mention that "other element" in the experience. This aware beside the attention flowing back and forth. This aware wasn't attention, but rather that that is "left standing" after everything is dropped including attention. So this aware cannot be directed or manipulated in any way. It just is.

So what dawned on me is, that there is a progress of being attentive, or in other words using attention the "flashlight" for different purposes. So initial stage is an unawareness of the potential to use attention. Then comes the recognition of the ability to direct attention. This stage is captivating, because attention is a powerful tool.
What is “attention” in direct experience? Does it really move around. Is it a thing/activity that “you” can direct? If I say “Hey look over here” – is there a “you” that turns attention? How does looking happen?
So attention is an aspect of the senses. It's part, yet somehow prior to becoming aware of an sensation. It is like the pre selector of what one is becoming aware of. With that it is the same as breathing, it happens by itself, without a doer, yet by experiencing the action of sensating this illusive i appears. Like I direct my attention from the seer to the seeing to the seen. Now the next stage is "slipping out" of this experience and being aware. This aware is beyond and free of attention! So in short, attention doesn't move around, it seems more like the three aspects of sensation (seed, seeing, seen) are moving thru "attention" (makes no sense, but this is how it felt to me).
If I say “Hey look over here” – is there a “you” that turns attention?

No, there isn't an I calling nor is there an you responding. The combine action is something that is happening. Neither personalities are required for this situation to happen. It occurred to me that this situation are any situation just happen like they were predetermined. Depending on which stage of "attention" ,naturally eventually "outgrowing" itself to be aware, there is variously degree of I.

Tim


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