I am ready to take a honest look inside me

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nestori
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I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Mon May 14, 2012 2:31 pm

I am 28 year old male and have been spiritual seeker for couple of years. I "think" that there are no experiences or physical things found in this personal world that would satisfy me and have no interest to chase anything anymore. I have had no-self experiences but if I am really honest, I can't say that I would be sure that there is "no self".

Would greatly appreciate any guidance! I am ready to take a look inside me!

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Mon May 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Hello nestori,

My name is Bill and would be happy to talk with you about this.
Tell me what some of your background and experience is.
Especially the no self experiences.

What do you expect will happen or what do you want to happen from looking at this?

For this to work the best, your answers to the questions need to come from your experience and
not from other sources. 100% honesty of where you are at right now. That's what works the best.
Can you commit to posting here at least once a day?


If you haven't read it yet, a good pdf book (free) to read along with is
the 'Gateless Gatecrashers' book. It will be of great help as you do this process.

The pdf is here:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

Glad you're here

Bill

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nestori
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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Tue May 15, 2012 6:44 am

Hi Bill,

I am glad and thankful that you are willing to help me! I can commit for posting once per day. There might be some special days that I am not able to access the internet but I'll notify if those come. Probably 1 posting per day is just a matter of commitment... and I do want to commit.

I would assume that it is the best that I am as honest as possible and don't explain things too much to prove my "spiritual knowledge". Also, maybe I just use word "I" when answering and not separate and start to think which "I" is speaking. Feel free to comment if you have some best practices on this.

Thanks for the book, I haven't actually read any other dialogues here as my gut feeling is that it would be best not to know how the "process works" and what is coming so I don't make "this" to any concept and jump to next possible liberation method. Does it make sense or do you recommend reading the book?

About my "story": Normal "good life" 20 years, some setbacks, started reading self-help which was nice at the time as it brought self-knowledge and also some "success". At the same time of course boosting my ego. After getting pretty much all that I wanted, I saw just by honest looking 2-3 years ago that no things or experiences bring happiness or peace. I started investigating spiritual marketplace. First I thought spirituality is something that you add to yourself and then you possess some skills to make you stay in present moment and be happy. At some point I saw that the spiritual process is not going to end well (it seemed to end to death). So I could say that I initially started by reading Coelho, Tolle etc. and eventually now am mainly "interested" in just the real thing (Gangaji, Adyashanti and Mooji etc.). In the process, there has been big emotions, tears, laughter, change of "life-circumstances" and other "basic-stuff". Nowdays I try to stay in Self (present moment or something) - or actually observer if I choose to drift away from that. And also do self-enquiry "who am I", "Is there a separate self" etc. I have been also part of a local spiritual/non-dual community so therefor have been able to also get a good deal of "intellectual knowledge"... which sometimes seems to mean nothing at all.

I had couple of "fresh" experienes just last week as I was on Mooji's silent retreat. I saw that all things report to myself. I asked my passport number and I saw that something reported that (I would say it was reported to "me-space" and I was able to choose the entity who listened that) and asomehow I was able to see both (reporter and one who was believing that). Quite strong sensations, laugher and tears came. I felt that "now I know there is no virtual-self". I felt all beings being connected and that there was no death. My mind was going fast at that time and I thought that "this was it" and was ready to pop the champagne and leave although something in me knew that if my mind is saying that, something is not right. The sensations felt away and I was a little amazed that although I was sure that I felt there was no self, it was like the experience made no difference at all in the end. I had the same feeling later at the retreat and observed it to vanish as well. I tried to leave experiences as they were and just relax and avoid chasing anything "old and dead".

So my expectation is to really finish this. I want to look whether there is or isn't a separate self. Both options are actually fine. I just want to know what is real and what isn't. So far I haven't found anything BUT again, something gets me irritated when looking and I can't say for sure that there is self or no self.

Awful lot of text, but thanks again for helping and just feel free to guide me with best practices. I am ready to give up all my intellectual knowledge and follow your guidance.

-Nestori
Hello nestori,

My name is Bill and would be happy to talk with you about this.
Tell me what some of your background and experience is.
Especially the no self experiences.

What do you expect will happen or what do you want to happen from looking at this?

For this to work the best, your answers to the questions need to come from your experience and
not from other sources. 100% honesty of where you are at right now. That's what works the best.
Can you commit to posting here at least once a day?


If you haven't read it yet, a good pdf book (free) to read along with is
the 'Gateless Gatecrashers' book. It will be of great help as you do this process.

The pdf is here:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

Glad you're here

Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Tue May 15, 2012 1:41 pm

Nestori,

Thank you so much for the detailed post. Glad you're here.

First, we assume most poeple have read thru some of the other posts, etc here.
It is not necessary to this, but if you have, that is why I recommend the book.
If you have not, then don't use the book. It would be there later if needed.
My experience is that if a person is earnest in this quest, which is absolutely desirable,
they will dig and find out what they need to know as it goes along. Desire is one
thing that is truly wanted at this stage.

You were right to question yourself at the stage you were at last week.
Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it. I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. You have to do the seeing.
It is through direct experience that it is seen. Its like we want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience. Its not hidden. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect fireworks. they may not happen. Each person is different. And all of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.

We use the word I here normally so don't feel you have to talk in any special way.

I am on west coast of US... GMT -7 . What time zone are you in?

What is your reaction to this: there is no I, no separate self. None. There never has been one. There is no you living your life. Just life, flowing. What comes up for you? thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc?
Feel free to expound on this in whatever comes up for you.

Bill

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nestori
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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Wed May 16, 2012 6:00 am

Thank you Billy for your message.

Basically I feel that because I am earnest in this quest and that is why I don't want to make same mistakes than before and have resisted the habit to read other posts here. I would maybe just "conceptualize the method" here and keep a safe and arrogant distance when replying. I don't want to do that. I have enough empty data and concecpts but direct seeing is what I am missing. But, I'll read the book and other posts if necessary.

My timezone is +2 so I am 9 hours ahead of you. I can reply at least at my morning time but possibly at evening too. Do you know if it is helpful to have kind of a quick reaction and answer to questions or kind of a take time and digest the questions a bit? Maybe really concentrate and check that my state is really focused in the question?

No fireworks expected then. Sounds reasonable. I actually feel same way. It feels like there is nothing special in this. Can't I just look and see honestly if there is separate entity. It feels that it can't be that simple. Why so many books, why so much fuzz and sound. When I have had no-self experiences, It kind of has felt completely ridiculous because of the contrast and hype of this thing.

About the question: First it starts that nothing comes up... basically "good quality" nothing... followed by relief, peace, joy. I reach "I wish it could be like that" "It would make sense.", -feelings or thoughts... keeping in that place little bit more... then I feel that "wish I could get it so I would be enlightened person and could demonstrate it in various situations."... which leads to sadness and little bit of discomfort as I see that there wouldn't be anybody actually who could demonstrate anything anymore. Which leads to stuckness... as I see that the person wanting to be enlightened can't wipe himself off.

-Nestori
Nestori,

Thank you so much for the detailed post. Glad you're here.

First, we assume most poeple have read thru some of the other posts, etc here.
It is not necessary to this, but if you have, that is why I recommend the book.
If you have not, then don't use the book. It would be there later if needed.
My experience is that if a person is earnest in this quest, which is absolutely desirable,
they will dig and find out what they need to know as it goes along. Desire is one
thing that is truly wanted at this stage.

You were right to question yourself at the stage you were at last week.
Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it. I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. You have to do the seeing.
It is through direct experience that it is seen. Its like we want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience. Its not hidden. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect fireworks. they may not happen. Each person is different. And all of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.

We use the word I here normally so don't feel you have to talk in any special way.

I am on west coast of US... GMT -7 . What time zone are you in?

What is your reaction to this: there is no I, no separate self. None. There never has been one. There is no you living your life. Just life, flowing. What comes up for you? thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc?
Feel free to expound on this in whatever comes up for you.

Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Wed May 16, 2012 1:43 pm

Hello Nestori,
Basically I feel that because I am earnest in this quest and that is why I don't want to make same mistakes than before and have resisted the habit to read other posts here. I would maybe just "conceptualize the method" here and keep a safe and arrogant distance when replying. I don't want to do that. I have enough empty data and concecpts but direct seeing is what I am missing. But, I'll read the book and other posts if necessary.
That is perfect! You will do well.
My timezone is +2 so I am 9 hours ahead of you. I can reply at least at my morning time but possibly at evening too. Do you know if it is helpful to have kind of a quick reaction and answer to questions or kind of a take time and digest the questions a bit? Maybe really concentrate and check that my state is really focused in the question?
Probably we get one good post a day each. This is fine. Time is irrelevant on this. Things will happen as they do.
About a quick reaction...this depends... if something comes up strongly for you, that's what's true for you. Just make sure that you give enough time to be sure the answers are your 100% gut honesty. That is the important thing. And there's no right or wrong here.
No fireworks expected then. Sounds reasonable. I actually feel same way. It feels like there is nothing special in this. Can't I just look and see honestly if there is separate entity. It feels that it can't be that simple. Why so many books, why so much fuzz and sound. When I have had no-self experiences, It kind of has felt completely ridiculous because of the contrast and hype of this thing.
It is actually very simple.
In a nutshell, the whole thing is as simple as: "There's no I, there's just what's going on, now and here."
I know... too easy. don't worry I will be doing all I can to point you in that direction.
About the question: First it starts that nothing comes up... basically "good quality" nothing... followed by relief, peace, joy. I reach "I wish it could be like that" "It would make sense.", -feelings or thoughts... keeping in that place little bit more... then I feel that "wish I could get it so I would be enlightened person and could demonstrate it in various situations."... which leads to sadness and little bit of discomfort as I see that there wouldn't be anybody actually who could demonstrate anything anymore. Which leads to stuckness... as I see that the person wanting to be enlightened can't wipe himself off.
Yes, these are all normal reactions to that question.
We have lived with the "I" forever and have never questioned its validity.
We look deeper and find, it's only a thought in the head.
A deeply ingrained, massive, belief about what we are.
We will look at it again, with fresh eyes to see if that is really true.

Tell me where thoughts arise for you. Where do they originate? Is there a point of origin?
Are your thoughts possessive in nature, for example are most of your thoughts about 'you' and your life
and things, etc? When you look at something like the computer, is it 'your' computer? or just a computer?
How about other things you own.... just look around where you are.
Can you control your thoughts? Can you stop thinking? Or know what the next thought will be?

Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Wed May 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Yes, these are all normal reactions to that question.
We have lived with the "I" forever and have never questioned its validity.
We look deeper and find, it's only a thought in the head.
A deeply ingrained, massive, belief about what we are.
We will look at it again, with fresh eyes to see if that is really true.

Tell me where thoughts arise for you. Where do they originate? Is there a point of origin?
First there is a feeling that they come somewhere near heart and neck, or inside head. Keeping there and looking... and I can't really say where they come. It seems that it just happens. However, it also feels that when I decide to think something (e.g. what to do tomorrow), then thinking hapens around that subject. So it feels that decision to think is behind them. Or they arise from decision to think.
Are your thoughts possessive in nature, for example are most of your thoughts about 'you' and your life
and things, etc? When you look at something like the computer, is it 'your' computer? or just a computer?
How about other things you own.... just look around where you are.
Most of them seem to be possessive. "My computer" or "My bed". Maybe I don't identify to them quite much as being on "spiritual path" for some time, but the language is definitely possessive. It seems to be a habit that I haven't noticed or questioned before.
Can you control your thoughts? Can you stop thinking? Or know what the next thought will be?
It seems that I can force my thoughts to quiet for a while but... they always come back. And maybe stronger. So although it seems that there is some control.... in the end, I can't control them in the long run.

About the next thought. Indeed, I don't know what that is. Seems to be quite shocking and strange somehow. I don't know what comes.

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Thu May 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Nestori,

Great noticing.
You're doing great!
Thoughts just happen. We don't really know where they come from or where they go.
They just do seem to arise out of nowhere. And there might be what's called a manipulation of them
But not control in any real sense. We also can't predict our thoughts. We aren't in control.
Most thoughts also seem to be about the 'me', and how the rest of everything relates to us.

Yes all these thoughts 'seem' like there is a me who is in charge.
But if we look very closely, we cannot find this I, this me.
We perceive things; labelling happens immediately, and then the stories start.
It feels like the I is the controller.
But is it really?
Or is the I just another story?
Another huge story that has never really been looked at.

How does a thought assert ownership? Is ownership even possible without a thought? Or a belief?
Look at your life and the things you say are 'yours', the things you say you own.
Is this true, this ownership, in reality?

Lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

Report back what you find.
Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Fri May 18, 2012 5:36 am

Nestori,
Great noticing.
You're doing great!
Thoughts just happen. We don't really know where they come from or where they go.
They just do seem to arise out of nowhere. And there might be what's called a manipulation of them
But not control in any real sense. We also can't predict our thoughts. We aren't in control.
Most thoughts also seem to be about the 'me', and how the rest of everything relates to us.
If manipulation happens, isn't there someone in control or manipulating the thoughts? Or does manipulation also just happen? Without I?

It is true that thought seem to be about 'me'. I have also noticed that, at least my, language or communication is... at the end just "I this and that"... you "You this and that"... over and over again. Which is actually quite sad as there is then no real communication between people.
Yes all these thoughts 'seem' like there is a me who is in charge.
But if we look very closely, we cannot find this I, this me.
We perceive things; labelling happens immediately, and then the stories start.
It feels like the I is the controller.
But is it really?
Or is the I just another story?
Another huge story that has never really been looked at.
Actually, when I look closely to this process. The "I" operates with "same principles" than the other stories. Actually quite shocking as well. I can't separate other stories from "I story".

It has been also my experience that I haven't been able to find this I. But I also feel that I get angry or discomfortable by looking as I reach "what are you looking there, nobody there" -sensation.
How does a thought assert ownership? Is ownership even possible without a thought? Or a belief?
Look at your life and the things you say are 'yours', the things you say you own.
Is this true, this ownership, in reality?
Ownership seems to last only when many people are believing in a same thought. In that sense, ownership is not possible without a thought. The things just are as they are. There is really nothing one can "do" to own them... So I would say ownership is "true" in my subjective reality if I buy the thought... but in the end, there is no ownership in reality. A little bit scary as well as because a feeling "I am losing everything" -comes.
Lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
I can say it is more true that the hand moved. It seems that the hand and so called "control-I" are somehow very separate and disconnected. They don't operate in same level, or with same principles... I can reach a thoughts like "it is quite scary if this is real, then I don't know what is going to happen ifthere is no control" or "should I just watch and see what this body does - I am scared of what that shall be"

Thanks for your help!

-Nestori

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Fri May 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Good work Nestori!
If manipulation happens, isn't there someone in control or manipulating the thoughts? Or does manipulation also just happen? Without I?
Is there any 'one' or 'thing' in control? Look at your direct experience on this question. What do you find?
Actually, when I look closely to this process. The "I" operates with "same principles" than the other stories. Actually quite shocking as well. I can't separate other stories from "I story".
Excellent observation.... its all about 'me'. Its very hard to find any thought not related to I.
It has been also my experience that I haven't been able to find this I. But I also feel that I get angry or discomfortable by looking as I reach "what are you looking there, nobody there" -sensation.
Because its not there, it can't be found, other than a thought in our heads.
Ownership seems to last only when many people are believing in a same thought. In that sense, ownership is not possible without a thought. The things just are as they are. There is really nothing one can "do" to own them... So I would say ownership is "true" in my subjective reality if I buy the thought... but in the end, there is no ownership in reality. A little bit scary as well as because a feeling "I am losing everything" -comes.
In reality, 'we' never had anything. Yes it can be a bit shocking.
Don't turn from the feeling. Experience the feeling as it comes up.
I can say it is more true that the hand moved. It seems that the hand and so called "control-I" are somehow very separate and disconnected. They don't operate in same level, or with same principles... I can reach a thoughts like "it is quite scary if this is real, then I don't know what is going to happen ifthere is no control" or "should I just watch and see what this body does - I am scared of what that shall be"
For sure the body is here. But the I, the me, the entity, that's what maybe we're not exactly sure of. This is what has been taken for granted for so long and believed. Is it true? We've seen how we're really not sure if there is an I controlling the thoughts or the body. Convention tells us that for sure, I am in control. But are we really? Who is in control? Do we know?

Good noticing. Yes, this can bring up some fear.
Fear of loss of control. If we don't control it, who or what does?
Again, don't turn from the fear. It is there to protect.
Welcome it, rest with it, experience it, and look behind the fear.
Is there anything there?

As you go through your day and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around. Look for this I. As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, check it out. Is there a self living your life? Or are all the thoughts about all of these things, including the I apparently living your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Write it down. Try a stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like typing for example.

If you can pin these thoughts down and get a good look at them, it's usually very revealing.


Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Sat May 19, 2012 8:16 am

hi, today i cant access to internet other than with my small mobile screen. But I try to get back to you tomorrow.

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Sat May 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Hello Nestori,

Thanks for checking in.
That is just fine. Just answer those questions when you have the access again.
Also... give some account of where you are with things, has anything 'moved'
or changed for you since you've started this?

Take care,
Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Sun May 20, 2012 9:55 am

Hi Billy,

I'll answer this message first. My memory seems to somehow to be in mixed state. Linearity seems to be disappearing, don't remember if something happened 5 minutes ago or last week. I don't see any problem on this, maybe just seems weird or funny. This has been the case for a while now so it is quite hard to say what is caused by starting this one-on-one.

Anyhow, I'll try my best. Before your help, as simple it sounds, I have never thought that "I" could be just a thought. Would I dare to day it is actually obvious... but I hesitate still to say it is 100% obvious for me. I have been looking my actions and movement and indeed they don't seem to require any "doer" inside. Seems like I, or mind, less and less tries to even prove that. Everything seems to be fine, I am perfectly fine no matter where I am or what happens around me I can be alone or with people. I hear silence behind all, more and more. I have lost interest on meeting some old friends as the "relationship" has been based on mind-pleasing. Actually the friendship was an illusion at the beginning. New things happen all the time and I seem to just to observe them.

My topical observations or questions are now the following:
1. I seems like I am "attaching" or having kind of a "all thoughts are illusion" or "everything is relative" type of thinking and it seems to hard to relate to real-life conversations. I feel quite often a need to say "It is not like that" or "You made a false assumption". I see "in others" how much everyday conversation is based on assumptions and me-you separation. I find that world fixed an death. Then I have thought that "what right do to make any corrections to other people's thoughts if I, myself, don't necessarily see clearly?" or "Do I need to push this philosophy to others?" Maybe I do it because it is not clear to me so I want to somehow confirm it with others.

2. f there is not a choice, does then destiny exist? Why couldn't anyone do what they want then (in context of doing lot of "bad" things). This is actually what I don't see as a problem but "others" do. But as I don't have a clear answer for myself, it is actually a burning question for me.

3. Actually I feel that I am honest when answering to you but later on I see thoughts like "Are you 100% honest or just answering to please you", which brings little bit of fear and suspicion. This might be followed by "I am making this all up" or "You are making now progress" -type of thoughts.

-Nestori
Hello Nestori,

Thanks for checking in.
That is just fine. Just answer those questions when you have the access again.
Also... give some account of where you are with things, has anything 'moved'
or changed for you since you've started this?

Take care,
Bill

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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby nestori » Sun May 20, 2012 8:17 pm

Hi Billy,

And here is the answer for second message. Currently feels very strange. I feel everything is very obvious... and at the same time I feel that "it can't be this obvious". I think am waiting for a feeling that I have 100% no doubt that separate self does not exist. Is this "wish" reasonable or should I throw away all expectations?
If manipulation happens, isn't there someone in control or manipulating the thoughts? Or does manipulation also just happen? Without I?

Is there any 'one' or 'thing' in control? Look at your direct experience on this question. What do you find?
I do not find anything, If I try and try to be in control, it little bit interrupts the natural flow - or blurs my vision a bit - but in the end, I haven't found anything that could eventually control anything.
Actually, when I look closely to this process. The "I" operates with "same principles" than the other stories. Actually quite shocking as well. I can't separate other stories from "I story".
Excellent observation.... its all about 'me'. Its very hard to find any thought not related to I.
It has been also my experience that I haven't been able to find this I. But I also feel that I get angry or discomfortable by looking as I reach "what are you looking there, nobody there" -sensation.

Because its not there, it can't be found, other than a thought in our heads.
What distracts me is that why do I get angry by stating that there is nobody there. Shouldn't it be a happy thing? Maybe there shouldn't be anybody to get angry?
Ownership seems to last only when many people are believing in a same thought. In that sense, ownership is not possible without a thought. The things just are as they are. There is really nothing one can "do" to own them... So I would say ownership is "true" in my subjective reality if I buy the thought... but in the end, there is no ownership in reality. A little bit scary as well as because a feeling "I am losing everything" -comes.

In reality, 'we' never had anything. Yes it can be a bit shocking.
Don't turn from the feeling. Experience the feeling as it comes up.
Thanks, I dare to say that I am fine with the fact that we never had anything. It is obvious. It is common sense.
I can say it is more true that the hand moved. It seems that the hand and so called "control-I" are somehow very separate and disconnected. They don't operate in same level, or with same principles... I can reach a thoughts like "it is quite scary if this is real, then I don't know what is going to happen ifthere is no control" or "should I just watch and see what this body does - I am scared of what that shall be"

For sure the body is here. But the I, the me, the entity, that's what maybe we're not exactly sure of. This is what has been taken for granted for so long and believed. Is it true? We've seen how we're really not sure if there is an I controlling the thoughts or the body. Convention tells us that for sure, I am in control. But are we really? Who is in control? Do we know?
I have been thinking the control question quite a lot. Possibly all my life. It seems and feels that I am in control but I dare to say that things are not always (never?) what they seem. So I definitely can't say that I don't know whether there is someone separate entity in control or not.
Good noticing. Yes, this can bring up some fear.
Fear of loss of control. If we don't control it, who or what does?
Again, don't turn from the fear. It is there to protect.
Welcome it, rest with it, experience it, and look behind the fear.
Is there anything there?
Couldn't actually meet or reach any feelings of fear after your message. But before when I have really met the fear fully it seems that in the end, fear and happy feelings feel the same. Just energy. Maybe it is just labels that I put on different bodily resonances.
As you go through your day and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around. Look for this I. As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, check it out. Is there a self living your life? Or are all the thoughts about all of these things, including the I apparently living your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Write it down. Try a stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like typing for example.

If you can pin these thoughts down and get a good look at them, it's usually very revealing.
Could you clarify what you exactly mean with this exercise. Do you mean that I could do something and then write down if I could find a separate entity that would control the doing? Anyhow, this is what I did.

By observing my life couple of days, it indeed feels that things happen themselves. Sometimes I have thoughts that something should happen...and sometimes it goes that way BUT sometimes very differently. At certain times, I have felt that my legs move by themselves and I can't be in control, I couldn't control all the millions of miracles that the moments bring. I might blur my vision and distract my clear seeing but control there is not.

By writing things down I saw my hands write that "I can't find anybody in control". I have I tried hard to see and try to be without trying. Just nothing. Nothing tangible. Eventually my hands wrote "why it can't be clear to me... clear to WHOM?"

By writing this I can also see how stupid - or strange - it feels to input "my" and "I" to every possible place in writing as well. It means nothing but it is just a very strong habit.

-Nestori

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Bill
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Re: I am ready to take a honest look inside me

Postby Bill » Mon May 21, 2012 6:44 am

Nestori,

You're doing great. I can see you're putting a lot of time, thought and effort into this.
This is very good. You are very close.
-
I is just a thought.
No doer can be found with true looking.
Life just happens.
We can say it's life, lifeing.
-
Ilona has said this:
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.
-
You're describing some confusion which is very normal.
In your relationships, answers, thinking.
Things are being rearranged.
The I will resist to stay in charge.
Just notice this as it happens.
Let's not get into choice, destiny, free will and all that. Who knows really...
Let's just say for now that Life happens. This we can see. There is a flow.
Go with it.
There is no I running the show. Never was.
Currently feels very strange. I feel everything is very obvious... and at the same time I feel that "it can't be this obvious". I think am waiting for a feeling that I have 100% no doubt that separate self does not exist. Is this "wish" reasonable or should I throw away all expectations?
Just let go of any expectations. Things will unfold as they do.
I have been thinking the control question quite a lot. Possibly all my life. It seems and feels that I am in control but I dare to say that things are not always (never?) what they seem. So I definitely can't say that I don't know whether there is someone separate entity in control or not.
Let's take another look here.
Look with your direct experience here.
Is there an entity in control?
Look with all your senses and see if you can find one.
Stop thinking, and use all your 5 senses to look for it.
Can you find anything?
Could you clarify what you exactly mean with this exercise. Do you mean that I could do something and then write down if I could find a separate entity that would control the doing? Anyhow, this is what I did.
By observing my life couple of days, it indeed feels that things happen themselves. Sometimes I have thoughts that
something should happen...and sometimes it goes that way BUT sometimes very differently. At certain times, I have felt that my legs move by themselves and I can't be in control, I couldn't control all the millions of miracles that the moments bring. I might blur my vision and distract my clear seeing but control there is not.
Yes, great noticing here.
Things happen. By themselves.

What if there really is no I living you?
What if it is just life?


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