Seeking out

[penguinos]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I'm tired of reading, thinking, meditating and generally searching for experiential answers on how to end mental suffering. I found a video by Elena Nezhinsky on youtube and liked the straightforward dialogue, so wanted to investigate.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I hope to directly experience the illusion of the self then get on with life. Perhaps even help others one day, I often see suffering.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I've spent a few years dabbling with meditation and reading and listening to lots of non-duality and spirituality things. I've spent at least a couple of decades trying to figure out what leads to expansion and contraction with little success.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

[Bananafish]

Hi penguinos!

Glad that you came across LU. :)
I'm sure this is going to be the place your search will end.


If you're ready, I want to start from this question:

When you say you're suffering mentally, where does that "you" exist?
Can you actually point at the location it exists?


Peace,

Bananafish

[penguinos]

Hello Bananafish, thanks for your reply. I may have over dramatised a bit...

I'm only referring to the usual stresses caused by personalisation, such as "they shouldn't have done that to me", "I shouldn't have made that mistake", "I must do better", "I can't believe this is happening" etc. Such inner dialogues start in my head and sometimes give rise to tensions in the body and more thoughts upon thoughts. Intuitively I'd say that "I" exist in my brain, but that's feeling and theory rather than observation.

When I make a deliberate effort to find 'me' in direct experience I see nothing but thoughts. But that doesn't stop it from feeling VERY real, and continuously taking hold throughout the day.

Thanks

Oliver

[Bananafish]

Hi Oliver! I'm quite excited to have you here for this conversation.

When I make a deliberate effort to find 'me' in direct experience I see nothing but thoughts. But that doesn't stop it from feeling VERY real, and continuously taking hold throughout the day.

Ok, then, let's take a look at the nature of thoughts - first, its location.

Can you point at the place where thoughts appear?
Where did you point at?

Regards,

Bananafish

[penguinos]

Hi Bananafish,

Can you point at the place where thoughts appear?
Where did you point at?

First I pointed at my head. Then I paused... because although thoughts clearly appear, it's hard to actually locate them in space without a suspiscion that I've just made up their location with another thought.

I'm afraid that's a vague response to your simple question. But I did point towards my head, Douglas Harding -style.

Thanks

Oliver

[Bananafish]

Greetings, Oliver. :)

First I pointed at my head. Then I paused... because although thoughts clearly appear, it's hard to actually locate them in space without a suspiscion that I've just made up their location with another thought.

Great! You couldn't really locate thoughts; you couldn't be sure.

Just to check a bit further, this time, please try to grasp (literally!) the thoughts
with your hand(s).




Could you do it?

[penguinos]

please try to grasp (literally!) the thoughts
with your hand(s).

Could you do it?

Ha! No, I can't assign a physical location to thoughts, unless I resort to thoughts about thought, which I think is cheating :-)

Oliver

[Bananafish]

Hello, Oliver!

I can't assign a physical location to thoughts, unless I resort to thoughts about thought, which I think is cheating :-)

That's a very good LOOKing, Oliver. :)

Did you clearly see that thoughts aren't locatable nor graspable? Do they seem
more phantom-like now?


Now, what can thoughts do other than
just appearing and disappearing?


Can a thought think?


Who is thinking? Is there any subject
in thinking, or is it that thoughts
just appear and disappear?

[penguinos]

Did you clearly see that thoughts aren't locatable nor graspable? Do they seem more phantom-like now?

They definitely can't be grasped. They seem like genuine experiences, but not part of the 'external' or 'real' world.

what can thoughts do other than just appearing and disappearing?

They can reference any element of experience, including other thoughts, but that seems about it.

Can a thought think?

If thinking is defined as generating thought, then ... Actually, I'm not sure. It's unclear what's generating thought.

Who is thinking? Is there any subject
in thinking, or is it that thoughts
just appear and disappear?

I can't find a thinker or subject. The thoughts just appear and disappear, unpredictably. Of course, I have to pay close attention to see this. Normally I just get carried away in the thoughts and flow of things.

Thanks

Oliver

[Bananafish]

Hi Oliver. :)

I can't find a thinker or subject. The thoughts just appear and disappear, unpredictably. Of course, I have to pay close attention to see this. Normally I just get carried away in the thoughts and flow of things.

Where is the 'I' that is paying attention, or losing it?
Can you locate it?

In what kind of form does this 'I' exist?
Would it be possible to show it to me if we met in person?

Best regards,

Bananafish

[penguinos]

Where is the 'I' that is paying attention, or losing it?
Can you locate it?

I can't actually find an 'I', let alone locate it.

In what kind of form does this 'I' exist?
Would it be possible to show it to me if we met in person?

It appears to just be a thought pattern. Which disappears when looked for, or when engrossed in some activity. So I wouldn't be able to point to it. So in some sense it does seem to be an illusion, but one that immediately takes hold when not directly looked at.

[Bananafish]

Greetings, Oliver!

It appears to just be a thought pattern. Which disappears when looked for, or when engrossed in some activity. So I wouldn't be able to point to it. So in some sense it does seem to be an illusion, but one that immediately takes hold when not directly looked at.

Who is the one that directly looks at "I?"
Is it the same "I," or is it something different?


Can the thought "I" look at something?


When something is seen,
who is the one that is looking?

Can you locate it?

[penguinos]

Who is the one that directly looks at "I?"
Is it the same "I," or is it something different?

This is getting interesting. When looking for what is looking, nothing is found. Awareness of thought just seems to ‘be’.

Can the thought "I" look at something?

It doesn’t seem that a thought can look at or know things, that seems reserved for awareness itself.

When something is seen, who is the one that is looking? Can you locate it?

It’s starting to seem like there is no ‘thing’ which is doing the looking, apart from awareness itself, which doesn’t seem to have a location. It’s a little confusing to think about, but perhaps it’s not something which can be resolved with thought.

Hmmm…

Thanks

[Bananafish]

It’s starting to seem like there is no ‘thing’ which is doing the looking, apart from awareness itself, which doesn’t seem to have a location. It’s a little confusing to think about, but perhaps it’s not something which can be resolved with thought.

Yes, yes, you got the point, Oliver.

Don't think, but LOOK and feel.

Do "you" exist in any kind of form, here and now?


Please don't try to make up an answer that you think will satisfy me.
Please be 100% honest when answering.
If you are still unsure, that's perfectly ok.


Peace,

Bananafish

[penguinos]

Hi Bananafish,

Please be 100% honest when answering. If you are still unsure, that's perfectly ok.

Now that you mention it…

The problem is that I logically believe there is no self, no free will, only the ‘now’ etc, but it’s difficult to directly see it on demand.

Putting aside the fact that memory is just another thought, I’ve experienced the lack of self before, but it takes a lot of time and focussed attention. 'Real life’ then gets distracting and returning to insight seems exceptionally difficult. Thought’s and beliefs take hold so quickly.

Do "you" exist in any kind of form, here and now?

Right at this moment, “I” seems real. But, ironically, in thought I know that “I" is just a thought.

So in an attempt to enquire:

‘In direct experience, to whom does the “I” appear real?’ … I find no person being drawn in by it.
‘Who is looking?’ … I don’t know [fighting away thought]
‘What is this “I” that keeps getting referred to?’ … errr...
‘For goodness sake let go of thought and LOOK! What is the “I”?’ … There is the glow of a screen, noises, no "I". Run out of words. Overwhelmed. When thought is tuned out it's unclear what is left. Empty? Now? There is effort to not get drawn into thought. Don't trust words. Time for a break by 'switching off'!