Durian, what brings you here?

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:40 pm

Is story happening to you?

No, story is not happening to me, because the existence of me is part of the story. I am not outside of the story.

But then I'm not sure if the word 'story' quite covers it, because it's not that we just literally made up a story to think of ourselves this way or that someone else taught us to—i think our brains evolved to develop that perception at a certain age.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:31 pm

You say I am not outside of story.
Is I personal? Is I you?

Would it be truer to say- I is not outside the story, I being a thought, not an entity.

We did not make up the story. Is it not being narrated on automatic?
Once again, is there any control over story?

Amness, being (verb) is here with or witout story. That imediate raw experience if now is all that is, before story gets told.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:15 am

You say I am not outside of story.
Is I personal? Is I you?
Would it be truer to say- I is not outside the story, I being a thought, not an entity.

Yes that wording is truer. The creation of 'I' is part of the story.

We did not make up the story. Is it not being narrated on automatic?
Once again, is there any control over story?

I know there is not any control over story but I can't answer this with honest conviction at the moment. There is frustration going on. Was just reading some of the Gateless Gatecrashers and so much was familiar, watching processes unfold in ways that reminded me of this process too, but they got to a place where there was no more confusion. i feel honestly kind of mentally retarded, like i have been so close for so long but cannot make the final switch to letting go of protection of the belief in self. Sure it's seen that self is a mental construct, and yes there are breaks of relief, and yes things are less personal and emotions are moving through a lot faster; but often, like right now, is this burning pain and tension that feels like identification, and this belief that the pain should not be there. i know that is not 'it'. thanks for sticking with me.
]

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Notice that shift is already happening. No one is in control of that. It's unfolding as it should at a spread that is the best for durian. It is all a process, a movement that is taking place here. All there is is now. The story about now is what creates suffering as there are thoughts that something should be different then what is.

But look at what is- breathing, seeing, hearing, sensations, raw experiencing, movement of eyes and hands. + naration, labelling.

Right now, when you are open to this moment, is here pain?

And if there really is no self, no me, big or small, is there anything that needs protecting?

Sending love.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue May 01, 2012 6:48 am

Notice that shift is already happening. No one is in control of that. It's unfolding as it should at a spread that is the best for durian.
1. Yeah, there are definitely beliefs about the way it should unfold. But if there was control over that, then it wouldn't really be the truth, would it.
2. I am laughing about the name I chose for this process, which is just one of my favorite foods...I had been talking about it online when this process started. It looks really funny now, what is best for durian. :D
3. I hope it's OK that I am still using the word 'I'—I don't want to be one of those people that forcibly uses super-stiff language to try and avoid sounding like I'm in ego or something, so I'd rather just be relaxed and speak normally. But if that confuses things, I can be more careful about it. I guess I am feeling a bit silly about this at the moment. In fact I am having the giggles.

It is all a process, a movement that is taking place here. All there is is now. The story about now is what creates suffering as there are thoughts that something should be different then what is.
And all these thoughts are the illusion of control: tonight what's coming up is that just being with 'now' is a way to give up the illusion of control. I would say 'give up control' or 'let go of control' but that isn't quite right. I would say 'being present' but that implies 'me' to be present. Anyway it's something I've wanted for so long, to let go of control, and giving up time, or the idea the story should be going differently, is a good way to practice it, if it can be practiced at all. I might get busted for sounding like there is a 'me' to give up these things but oh well, not sure how else to communicate this.

But look at what is- breathing, seeing, hearing, sensations, raw experiencing, movement of eyes and hands. + naration, labelling.
Right now, when you are open to this moment, is here pain?

In a moment there is pain but when I am open to this moment, pain sensation dissolves into the flow, so it is never a lasting, stuck, disagreeable experience, even if the pain resurfaces over and over again for a while. Last night, reading this really helped with a super splitting headache. The moment can bring up the painful sensations but it's the story about it over time that makes it intolerable.

And if there really is no self, no me, big or small, is there anything that needs protecting?
It seems like always these last questions get me to the place of feeling stumped. I mean, no, of course not. Ultimately. Nothing that needs protecting. But within the still-servicable illusion of 'me', there is still attachment to this life form. Just because when I look behind phenomena, there is nothing solid, doesn't mean that this life (story) doesn't want to be protected anymore...

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue May 01, 2012 11:51 pm

Great, Durian, I see that you are starting to get that there is nothing to get :)
Yes, the story of pain makes pain into suffering.

Without story, there is only this. And that is always here, now, including thoughts. Nothing means anything until you buy into story of meaning. So the story does not need to be protected, nothing can hurt the story, it will carry on, as it does.


What is it that identifies with story?

Sending love.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu May 03, 2012 2:19 am

What is it that identifies with story?

The conditioned thoughts/thinking (for example, fitting events/people/information into the story based on past experiences).

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu May 03, 2012 10:59 pm

Hm, thoughts identify with story?
Thoughts are about identifying.
Take another look.

What is it that identifies with story? Dig deeper. Give a clear complete answer.
How does this identifying work.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri May 04, 2012 3:34 pm

Hm, thoughts identify with story?
Thoughts are about identifying.
Take another look.

What is it that identifies with story? Dig deeper. Give a clear complete answer.
How does this identifying work.


I was wondering if that would make any sense! :P What I appeared to be seeing was that when identification with story took place, such as taking something personally, the identification itself was just another thought. There was a sensory experience and then a thought arose to place it into a context based on conditioning—like it was pulling from a databank based on a supercomputer of collected data and associations and past reactions.

So, if thoughts are identification, is that all I'm saying here and I still haven't answered your question? I'm not sure what else could identify with story if there is not some entity to identify with it and we are just reacting machines with stories emerging out of reactions to sensory experiences.

<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Fri May 04, 2012 7:05 pm

Great, now it makes sense.
So what we got so far is a direct experiencing of whatever comes up + narration about experience. That includes thoughts about identification.

Is there a me at all? Was there ever?

Is there an experiencer?
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun May 06, 2012 4:39 pm

Hi Ilona, on the road, more soon.
<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon May 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Is there a me at all? Was there ever?

Is there an experiencer?


No, no, and no.

BUT, there is a snag today. I have to say that actually, a few days ago, I felt able to answer these questions for the first time just from experience without feeling like part of the answer was coming from belief. Usually there is belief in there about this answer (except for the brief 'high' periods—but this felt more grounded). This time something seemed to be shifting and I felt like, I can finally answer this question honestly without doubt. I had watched the video you posted by Gary Weber and watched a couple more by him and it was really helpful at removing some final doubts. But then I was busy and said, well, if I really see this, it will still be here tomorrow or the next day. And now a few days later, I am back to feeling like my answer will be coming too much from belief and not just from direct experience. Like the mind has too much of a hold again.

So while I totally want to just give you the 'right answer' and be classified as 'done', I don't want to elicit a false positive. :D

D

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue May 08, 2012 8:05 am

Don't worry, we'll keep working until its absolutely clear.
So good to hear that you have been seeing glimpses and feeling the truth of it.

Is there anything at this point that you expect to happen?
What is it that is holding on and to what?

Much love :))
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue May 08, 2012 6:39 pm

I have read (and so I expect) here that what is seen cannot be unseen. So I expect there to be a more sustained perspective that makes life less serious in a more permanent way than just temporary seeing with lightness followed by return to heaviness and needing to remember to 'believe' in no self. Belief about it or searching the head to find the right perspective or to find the way out of the maze won't be necessary. And it won't be necessary to do a 'practice' (like meditation) to re-see.

What is holding on...there seems to be a strength of patterns, needing to believe thoughts. Honestly right now things are muddy so I don't know what is holding on.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue May 08, 2012 8:23 pm

ok i see. you expect that what is seen can not be unseen. absolutely. but, that does not mean that you can never get lost in the story. it's like watching a movie and getting sucked into it. once you look, you know- it's a movie, not real life. so once you look you know, it's a story, not reality..

also, whatever has been repressed will be coming up to be released. beliefs will still be operating until they fall off or are inspected. there are multiple tools to clean up the system from old rooted beliefs. more beliefs- more confusion, more suffering, more getting lost in the story.

seeing that there is no separate self knocks a core belief, but it takes a fair amount of time to clean up the rest. however, it's a beginning of living free. once you see that there is no me that drives, it does not mean that there is no action to be taken.

seeing through illusion does not destroy illusion. there is knowing that story is not reality.
there is no need for practice like meditation or any other to see the truth of no self whenever you reach for it. it is not a state of lightness. it is not a state at all. it is knowing. like you know that santa is not real. so if you get lost and check, it is always available.

now tell me with whole honesty, can you believe that there is a self/ me, that is in charge and control of life.
tell me as well if getting sucked into a story is not on automatic?

much love.
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