The Evolutionary Leap

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Nizhoni
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The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:46 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
The leap in consciousness I have been aware was going to take place during my lifetime since I was a child is happening.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Connection & grounding in the awareness of this awakening.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Eastern meditation for 40 years, Indigenous spirituality or practices since the early 90's. Energy, Consciousness, Heart Centered Existence

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:43 pm

Hi there, welcome to LU and thanks for your initial information.

What we do here at LU is guiding to the seeing through the individual self. Is this what you are up for?
Is everything, every pre-existing belief, or dogma, up for examining and letting go of?

If you could consider carefully and answer these two questions, then we can see whether I might be able to accompany you.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:17 pm

Hello Mark,
Yes I am up for seeing through self. The last few years I have had some traumatic experiences which brought intense emotion and much time was spent processing it all. I utilized my breath to work my way through it and felt some deep emotions within I had never accessed before. After a lifetime of spiritual practice I was brought to my knees, shattered into tiny fragments yet found myself still standing... breathing & transforming through the experiences. It was a great awakening within and I found myself here amount other places. New connections and endeavors. So... what can I say? Let's talk and access what still remains. It wasn't fun and seemed to take a long time to process all that occurred. Moving through life without spending all that time would be much more pleasant although beautiful insights were gained and I found myself here.

I look forward to hearing back.

Also I wrote admin here that my time zone was off. I do not see how to correct it. I am eastern standard time USA.

Thank You

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:14 am

Mark am I in the right section for a thread? Possibly I should have begun in the Archive section. Unsure...please advise. After navigating around a bit today I was unsure about this.

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:53 am

HI there,

Yes, you are in exactly the right section here.

Before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

A few quick guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please set aside any other teachings (including readiing, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga). Please give all your attention to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

If you could confirm that you have read the LU disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would still like me to guide you - then we shall continue!

Cheers

Mark

PS what shall I call you?
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:32 pm

Yes the disclaimer and DE article have been read. Guidelines will be followed as recommended and actually feels nice to release those. When registering it said not to use the name given at birth. If this is what is preferred then it is Denny. So... let's continue

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:34 pm

Mark FYI my time zone is listed incorrectly. It is EST USA so there is a 6 hour difference if you are in France. It is 11:34 am here at this post.

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:50 pm

Hi Denny

Thanks for those posts... and the details about time zone are useful.

From my previous (ie first) post, I can't see where you answered the second question:-
Is everything, every pre-existing belief, or dogma, up for examining and letting go of?
Can you have a scan, and consider whether there is something that is being held dear. (All I ask here is honest looking). Just let me know.

We will not be looking into achieving any better states here. This is solely about looking into what has always only ever been the case, and what can only ever be the case. Please now note any physical sensations which come up when you read this. (In our dialogue I will be looking for the sensorial reactions in this moment, actually more interested in those than intellectual/reasoned-out) answers.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:09 pm

Thank you Mark. Still learning to navigate the site a bit, got my time zone changed. Not sure about transfer of quotes into a reply yet. Mark ask: "Is everything, every pre-existing belief, or dogma, up for examining and letting go of?"
Yes... the mind jumps at the thought of such. Feelings of having been there but back & forth. This must be the grabbing of thought behind the feelings. The holding of the experience... pain & pleasure... identification with it... making it personal.

You ask me to scan and consider if something is held dear.
Oh my... life is held dear. How do you speak about that with words... no thought... how do you put a feeling into words with no thought. Impossible! Can the feeling speak itself? So... Life is held dear... physical sensations: an open feeling in my chest to be honest as if exploding in a sense, a pleasant sensation like a flower in full bloom. Also a sensation of vulnerability...a need to protect or guard... to care for...to water the flower. Happy & Sad sensations which seem to be felt all at once yet the overall sensation is beautiful and has that feeling of a flower in full bloom. I get stuck sometimes... grabbing... holding onto... you want to touch it... and you do yet it can't really be held... yet it can. Is there a state that can be sustained? I see that there is something within me that wants this freedom I recognize and feel in a sustainable way & there are thoughts that it is not possible to sustain and I swing back and forth. Mark I laugh at myself seeing these words and at the same time feel tearful but not tearful in the sense of frustration or pain. If it must be expressed this sensation I would have to say it is close to a grieving or mourning the loss of all I have identified with.

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:08 am

HI Denny,

Thanks for that response and for your honesty.
Is there a state that can be sustained? I see that there is something within me that wants this freedom I recognize and feel in a sustainable way & there are thoughts that it is not possible to sustain and I swing back and forth.
As I already mentioned we are not looking here at anything to be attained, just what already is. (Please check any sensorial reactions when you read that). We will be looking very closely at expectations around liberation. But first to get our terms of reference clear, I would like you to do a very simple little exercise. It is about noticing what is raw firsthand, now experience via the senses (which we will label (E), and thought matter which we will label (T):-

Just sit still for about 2 minutes and notice all that is noticed. Every sensation and every thought that passes by (no need to change or judge any of it, just notice).
Make a list of all that is noticed.
Then, looking at each item on the list, write after it either (T) or (E).

(E) Is just the experiences noticed via the senses in this moment. (T) is for all that is thought-based, including all memories, concepts, labelling, descriptions, explanations, assumptions, mental commentary, everything that is pointing away from this moment.

Then, let me have your list with the (T)s and (E)s added after each item.

Cheers

Mark

PS To use the quote function, highlight the area of text to select it and then press the 'Quote' box in the menu at the top of the editing screen. If that isn't clear, there is a post about it here:- http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:10 pm

As I already mentioned we are not looking here at anything to be attained, just what already is. (Please check any sensorial reactions when you read that).
E-This was the first thing I read and immediately felt a sensation in my solar plexus like a burst of energy for lack of other words to describe it. Like a balloon quickly inflating or popping, strong sensation.

T-Oh No... related the sensation to fear of what is unknown, only lasted seconds but still was like a sudden jolt like when someone jumps out and startles you.

(The Exercise Given)
E-sensation of heart beating
T-I can feel & hear my heart beating
E-sense of time lapse between feeling heart & acknowledgement (thought) of what it was a sort of presence
T-thought of the moment in between the sense of heart beating & thought of it
T-how can I know it is my heart beating without a thought that this is what it is
E-sensation of holding something in my hand
T-there is a pen in my hand
E-looking up I view artwork on the wall
T-I see the artwork, colors, thoughts of the artist, how the work makes me feel, dreams, meaning of the piece
E-eyes shift to computer screen
T-I see bubbles on my screen saver

The exercise takes me into thought. If I don't think about what I am perceiving... heart, pen, art, computer it seems there is nothing. If words are not utilized to describe the sensations within the body there is just this body doing it's own thing which is still a perception...a body... life within in. It functions without my conscious effort through it's own intelligence. The sensations appear as a guidance system but the perceptions are a product of mind or thought such as I am human, I write, I breathe, My heart beats. It is like a movement and a rest and there is fear of surrendering so completely, the pull of the mind and falling... trusting.

E-tears, frightened, emotional sensations
T-what is there to hold on to? Why do I have to identify or define myself? Or... does it even matter if I do or don't?
E-sensation of peace, calmness
I looked up after writing the last line and my eyes landed on a canvas with a picture of me...silhouette of me sitting in meditation in a temple in Guatemala with the sky, lake and volcano's lit up in the background.
E-sense of peace & calm... surrender
T-this is a pleasant feeling, something I love, A state enjoyed and one where I prefer to walk in

T-back to the quote... there is nothing to attain and no balloon popping in my solar plexus, no surprise from someone jumping from behind a door at me.

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:04 am

HI Denny,

Thanks for that response and again for the honesty/ Doing fine!
T-Oh No... related the sensation to fear of what is unknown, only lasted seconds but still was like a sudden jolt like when someone jumps out and startles you.
Great, this seems to have a lot of (E) in it too. Yes, the fear of the unknown - like standing at the threshold of heaven too? Can the actual sensations be embraced if/whenever they come? Can an aliveness be felt in them (even though the label (T) may be 'fear'?

Thanks for the record of the (E)ing and (T)ing exercise. Now can we take just the first part (we'll have to pull it up from memory to this present moment as it's not actually happening now, but that's ok):-
E-sensation of heart beating
T-I can feel & hear my heart beating
E-sense of time lapse between feeling heart & acknowledgement (thought) of what it was a sort of presence
T-thought of the moment in between the sense of heart beating & thought of it
T-how can I know it is my heart beating without a thought that this is what it is
E-sensation of holding something in my hand
T-there is a pen in my hand
E-looking up I view artwork on the wall
T-I see the artwork, colors, thoughts of the artist, how the work makes me feel, dreams, meaning of the piece
E-eyes shift to computer screen
T-I see bubbles on my screen saver
Of course the very desscribing of anything involves thought (as you alluded to in your subsequent commentary). and it suggests solid objects and sometimes a 'me' and 'my body' to be doing it, yes?
Now, as an exercise, would you please re-write that segment above:-
a) in any (T),s rewrite as 'the thought that (what you wrote)', eg "I can feel and hear my heart beating'" might become "The thought that I can hear my heart beating",
b) in any (E)'s taking out any 'I' 'me' 'my' or 'mine', and
c) in any (E)'s rewrite to replace any physical objects with a more fluid description, eg 'looking up I view artwork on the wall' might become 'as sensation of looking upwards, with a viewing-artworky, wall-ish feeling'. There will be some groping for words here, but that's fine, that's the point.

When you've re-written it, please let me know how it feels. Does it feel more true, or less true than what was originally there? Don't forget, as always, to note down all the sensations which arise as you read these questions, and as you consider the exercises.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:47 pm

Yes the sensations can be embraced. Actually they are happening so in essence they are embraced, they simply are what they are...yes? I can place a thought around the sensation...define it and therefore break it into some sort of belief system in which it could be utilized in psychological or spiritual practices to approach it to further define it and utilize it for the purpose of growth or gaining insight or wisdom. Does the sensation feel alive? Yes very much so as if every fiber of my being is lit up, it emanates as if through my pores. the sensation is very alive. let's say I don't define it at all...(I just sat here for several minutes not defining this sensation) hilarious! what are my thoughts around this? it feels too big to define as if incomprehensible, I like it, if feels very free, eyes wide open, feeling with no thought yet is that even possible? what is it being touched here? (not looking for you to answer that it's just an expression) I know you are just here to point anyway.

You say: describing anything requires thought suggesting solid objects and at times a me and a body.

yes a thought requires perception, a me and body doing it...yes. just like seeing a tree, someone once told me it was a tree so this is how it is perceived. There is a body that feels the sensations coursing through it and applies perception to it. Can I feel the tree without calling it a name (tree)? Yes I believe so yet it is in my naming of it that it becomes a thing. Is everything a thought?

Rewrite:
T-the thought that I can hear & feel my heart beating
T-the thought of the moment in between the sense of the heart beating & the thought of it
T-The thought of how can I know it is my heart beating without a thought that this is what it is
T-the thought of there is a pen in my hand
T-The thought of the artwork, colors, thoughts of the artist, how the work makes me feel, dreams, meaning of the piece
T-The thought of seeing bubbles on my screen saver
E-sensation of movement in form
E-sense of time lapse between movement in form and the thought of it
E-sense of pressure in extension of form
E-sense of form moving upwards, viewing barrier on which colors were viewed
E-Sense of form moving closer colors & movement viewed

Well... the T's were easy but the E's were strange to say the least. How did it feel? A bit disorienting. If I don't label...a body, a work of art, a pen, a hand, etc. how do I express it?
Example: E-sensation of heart beating - changed to - sensation of movement in form. Of course form is an object. I can see how you can replace heart with movement but how do you replace body? Form is all I could come up with. Haha... just stopped to feel what was going on inside. Thoughts of, this doesn't make sense to me. Thoughts of just doing the exercise without attempt to figure it out... just a motion...a movement. Actually a feeling of alertness as if things are magnified around me... what is going on all around me. Hearing music, hearing car doors outside and feeling the temperature on my skin, the smell of coffee and so on. Often when writing here as the work is done there is a sense of well... how can this be put...expansion internally? It feels like I will burst into tears yet there is no sadness yet maybe there is? Like a joy & grieving dancing together. I don't know... just sensations I get doing this at times.

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ElPortal
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby ElPortal » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:43 am

Hi Denny,

Nice work. It's not that we are trying to avoid ever again using nouns to describe things, more that we are seeing through their solidity, seeing that labelling is just that: 'labelling'.

Now that the difference has been explored a little between on the one hand thoughts interpretations, assumptions, memories, speculation,mental explanations, memories labels and descriptions (T) and on the other direct, firsthand, raw experience via the senses (E), I invite you take a look at this list of possible expectations around liberation. You will probably already have read it (from the LU home page) but this time I invite you to pause over each item, and notice any (E), any sensations or reactions which come up. (Yes, the (T) can be noted, but it's more the sensations we are interested in here):-
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.
Just note down any where there is any reaction and describe.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Nizhoni
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Re: The Evolutionary Leap

Postby Nizhoni » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:00 am

Below are the sensations/reactions around this list which I had read prior to my initial post on the site.

1-no expectations around this statement and not really feeling any reaction to it
2-never looked at this creating some specialness within myself, no sensations there. As far as gaining something extra well... what else is there? LOL... life happens... there is no free will... we just move with it or we don't... yes or no is about all the free will we have
3-no strong sensations around cultivating an altered state. So much of my life practicing meditation and Shamanic Practices. Altered states just happen too, it's a part of life. Altered state is a strange term anyway. What does that mean. Just another bunch of words. Are we altered when we see an aura, have an OOBE, A vision, and so on? Are we altered when we are walking around in our everyday waking state? Again... it's just life to me. There seems to be nothing special or not special about it.
4-good...I'm not interested in someone playing with my head.
5-what am I learning here? Not gaining knowledge? I was thinking more of more immediate insight or awareness.
6-Not about thoughts or sequence of thoughts. Sensation that it is more of a flow of energy... an awakening in the sense of watching... feeling
7-sensations around holiness, good, moral or better person. Sensations around this are not too much. Feelings that I am good & moral but holy or better I have not identified with yet I do know I am all these and more or rather that these experiences and more have moved through this body.
8-feeling of relief that awakening is not magic, a belief, philosophy, etc.
9-eternal happiness? That would be strange indeed. Sensation of bewilderment.
10-freedom from emotions and intensity? feeling of emptiness around this. Feelings happen, this is life.
11-getting rid of ego? This made me giggle. That as Alan Watts puts it is the biggest ego trip going. It's comical.
12-18 no strong sensations around these but I will mention one #15
15-The Story of me disappearing - sensation of relief and happiness. Why oh Why would I not want to feel all the stories that flow through. It's beautiful even though they can hurt sometimes. Love lies beneath it all... even anger.

So Mark I had read this before as I stated and there was not a lot of sensation around it other than a sort of blankness with most of it. How can you change what is anyway? As stated we can say yes or no and that is about it. Sensations flow through, thoughts flow through, sometimes they take hold for a while, sometimes they keep moving. Stillness & movement is the sensation.


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