Guide please

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Bokkie
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Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:38 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have 'seen the light' many times,I have had direct experiences yet still find myself searching. I know there is no 'I', I know this, i have actually for a brief moment experienced this, then went on living as per normal! how does that happen. I would like to finally end this backward,forward,backward,forward thing that is happening. I'm tired and I want to start living from my heart not my head,I want to be still.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I want to crash the Gate completely! I want to finally go through the Gate fully.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
10yrs ago i had a massive shift after reading Eckhardt Tolle's A New Earth, that then put me onto the seeking path, since then i have read, i have searched, i have had experiences, my perceptions have changed greatly, i have overcome some pretty significant limiting beliefs. I am very different to how i was, I have now arrived to a point where i want to live from my heart, i was given a directive by 'higher Consciousness' 2yrs ago, simply it was "let go and let god" i have been searching for 2 solid years how to do that. I have come to realise that I cannot do this on my own and need a guide to get me through this last push.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:01 am

Hi there, welcome to LU and thanks for your intro.

If you work with me we will not be looking into any better experience, or state of consciousness, or any permanent state at all. We will simply be looking into what has always, and can only ever, be the case. How do you feel about that? I mean literally, 'how do you FEEL about that'? ie what sensations (honestly, in detail) come up when you read that?

If you would still like to continue, then let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

A few quick guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together, and be prepared to leave aside all spiritual books, talks and teachings also. I am not here to instruct or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

If you could confirm that you have read the LU disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would still like me to guide you - then we shall continue!

Cheers

Mark

PS 1. what shall I call you? 2. Which time zone are you in? (continental Europe here).
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:38 pm

Hello there Mark,

Thanks for helping me out!
If you work with me we will not be looking into any better experience, or state of consciousness, or any permanent state at all. We will simply be looking into what has always, and can only ever, be the case. How do you feel about that? I mean literally, 'how do you FEEL about that'? ie what sensations (honestly, in detail) come up when you read that?
My first feeling was disappointment that I can't have the permanent state of consciousness that I 'think' I am looking for, then I read your words again and again and felt excitement because i am ready to "simply LOOK" into what has always been.

I confirm I have read the LU disclaimer and the article and I really still want you to guide me
I am not here to instruct or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?
Ok. Only firsthand direct experience and honesty

My time zone is Australian eastern time zone.

Please call me Olivia.

Thanks once again for helping me.

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:52 pm

Hi Olivia,

THanks for your response.

Let's stay with those sensations of disappointment for a while. Not so much the thought processes (T) around that, but the actual bodily sensations (E) which arise (if you can call up the feeling again). Where are the sensations exactly, how do they feel, do they have a shape, do they move around, is there a colour associated with them, do they go after a while?

The labels (T) and (E) I will use to denote thoughts (T) (which include assumptions, beliefs, memories, labels and descriptions, speculations, interpretations, reasoning, all that is mental commentary) on the one hand, and actual firsthand experience (E) (ie raw sensations, all that is directly experienced in this moment, MINUS any interpretations and associated thought material). I invite you to do the same during our dialogue. (Let me know if you have any questions about this.)

Also, you have probably read this already, but I would like you to take time to consider this list of expectations which can arise, and please pause over each item on the list, giving time for consideration and to notice any sensorial reactions which arise (E), note them down and let me know.

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.

Take your time.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:41 pm

Hi mark
Let's stay with those sensations of disappointment for a while. Not so much the thought processes (T) around that, but the actual bodily sensations (E) which arise (if you can call up the feeling again). Where are the sensations exactly, how do they feel, do they have a shape, do they move around, is there a colour associated with them, do they go after a while?
Ok. The sensation is in the bottom of my stomach, makes me feel yuk. No shape,no moving, if I was to say there is a colour it would be black. It goes after a while because excitement took its place for me.
The labels (T) and (E) I will use to denote thoughts (T) (which include assumptions, beliefs, memories, labels and descriptions, speculations, interpretations, reasoning, all that is mental commentary) on the one hand, and actual firsthand experience (E) (ie raw sensations, all that is directly experienced in this moment, MINUS any interpretations and associated thought material). I invite you to do the same during our dialogue. (Let me know if you have any questions about this.)
All good
1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
I wish it was, that's the first thing that comes to me
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
Damn
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness
Ok
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts
Yes I agree, I feel I would be cheating myself if this was about tricking the mind
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
Ok
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts
Ok
. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person
Ok
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
Ok

9.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness
Ok

10
. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
Got it

1
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
Just seeing through it?

12.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
Ok

13.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
Ok

14.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
Ok

15.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
Ok

16.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
Yes I agree

17.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
That's right

18.
This is not a self improvement program.
Ok

Mark, I hope I have done what you have asked for here. Where I have responded Ok, that's really all I felt, very simply Ok, where I felt more I wrote more. Sorry if I'm not giving long winded responses but I'm not feeling very much yet to anything.

I have to go and see to my kids, it's late here, but I will log on first thing in the morning and respond to you ok. I'm very happy and nervous to be taking this journey with you.

Olivia

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:38 pm

Hi Olivia

Wow, that was quick! Take time, maybe respond just once a day, twice if you like, but give each question and exercise some time.... see what sensations come up each time, as I said.

Thanks for staying with the sensations on the first question. That yukness at the bottom, could you feel some aliveness in it? (even if the label of 'undesirable' or 'black' might have been applied by the mind)

Now with the list of 18 items, you gave me mental answers, rather than sensations arising. So now re-read my original instructions and re-do it, just noticing the SENSATIONS (E) which arise each time, where there are any. Notice them in detail, and then describe to me. No need to record the items where there is no sensorial reaction.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:41 pm

PS
I'm very happy and nervous to be taking this journey with you.
Thanks for this honesty and directness (E). It's just what is needed.

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:41 am

Hi Mark,

Wow, this is hard! I actually did not realise how in my head I am. So, I took the time to go through everything and feel into each 'This is not', the only thing I can say I am experiencing is nothing, a kind of quite as a close my eyes and feel what i'm feeling there is just this nothingness , there is no angst, there is no tension. Gosh I must be a robot to have no feelings like this.
1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.
Mark I'm so sorry I just can't express much feeling here, I don't know why I can't. I just don't feel like any of the statements matter that much I guess, they are all fine as they are.

Much thanks for all your help

Olivia

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:47 am

Mark i know this is my second post for the day and its only 10.30am here...lol but i have something that has just hit me.

Im just working away at work and then I get this statement in my head...I think it was my head!

I am fighting what is, i don't want what is, I want to change things and make them better, why do i have to accept what is? I sat back in my chair and absolutely felt a huge amount of energy in my body! omg, your questions have obviously got me thinking even when i don't know that i'm thinking about them.

then this comes out: Is this what is meant by 'let go and let god'? holy cow, I am struggling with myself to just let life be life!!!!!! I am obviously wanting things to change permanently, i am obviously wanting my 'state' to change permanently but that is not going to happen, I simply have to sit back and let life be life! BUT I CAN'T for some reason, this I is still wanting control.....OMG! how do I stop this, how do I give up control?

Wow all that just came out the blue!

olivia

Odelle

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:14 am

HI Olivia (Odelle?), and thanks for that report of what thoughts came up.
then this comes out: Is this what is meant by 'let go and let god'? holy cow, I am struggling with myself to just let life be life!!!!!! I am obviously wanting things to change permanently, i am obviously wanting my 'state' to change permanently but that is not going to happen, I simply have to sit back and let life be life! BUT I CAN'T for some reason, this I is still wanting control.....OMG! how do I stop this, how do I give up control?
What we are investigating is even more fundamental than that: 'what is there there that has the ability to keep control or give up control?' 'Is there a free agent there with the ability to 'let go' or 'let God', or to 'keep hold' and 'stop God' or 'stop Life'? Has there ever been such an individual agent? That is what we are looking into here.

Don't forget to report on the actual (bodily) SENSATIONS which come up each time, when you read, when you consider, when you do the exercises.

Looking forward to your answers from the previous post.

Cheers,

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:53 am

Hi Mark,

I have 2 names, one for work and one for everything else, previous marriage stuff...long story. Olivia is my name.

Mark I read your questions early this afternoon. It is now evening here so I have been working on these questions for hours now.
'what is there there that has the ability to keep control or give up control?'

My first response to this in the afternoon was I don't know. Now after some hours of looking I find absolutely nothing here to keep control or give up control. Just my mind telling me that I want control if anything.
'Is there a free agent there with the ability to 'let go' or 'let God', or to 'keep hold' and 'stop God' or 'stop Life'?
Life is just being life, i cannot stop that. There is no free agent here Mark, just life.
Has there ever been such an individual agent? That is what we are looking into here
My brain always told me that there was but now I know there is not. I feel light, my head is all tingly. I have been fighting all afternoon with myself. I have been walking around looking at everything with a feeling of just experiencing life. Still though I am identified with my mind. I don't really feel anything other than lighter somehow and happy that I see there is no me.

Thanks so much
Olivia

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:13 am

Hi Olivia

Ok, just noticed your 'first post of the day', the one with the list of 18. Don't worry: we're just looking at whatever comes up, not 'what's supposed to be coming up' ;-)
I feel light, my head is all tingly. I have been fighting all afternoon with myself. I have been walking around looking at everything with a feeling of just experiencing life. Still though I am identified with my mind. I don't really feel anything other than lighter somehow and happy that I see there is no me.
Thanks for this honest report of sensations. Great. Is it ok to stay with these, just notice them moving and changing, evolving, noticing Life doing what it does right here, right now?
happy that I see there is no me.
What is it that sees that there is no me? There is a seeing, but is there something, or some individual there which is seeing?

What is the experience of this moment? Let's notice it. Just sit for 2 minutes and notice all that comes up, sensations (E) and thought (T). Notice the aliveness, the 'this-momentish-ness' of the sensations, and the 'referring-to-something-ness', the 'looking-away-from-this-immediacy-ness' of the thoughts. Then make a list of each item (following each with either (E) or (T). Note each thought as "the theought that.. (this)", "the thought that .. (that)". Then let me have your list.

No rush, just notice all that's going on. No need to judge or change anything.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:12 pm

Hey mark,
What is it that sees that there is no me? There is a seeing, but is there something, or some individual there which is seeing?
there is nothingness, I don't know how else to describe nothingness
What is the experience of this moment? Let's notice it. Just sit for 2 minutes and notice all that comes up, sensations (E) and thought (T). Notice the aliveness, the 'this-momentish-ness' of the sensations, and the 'referring-to-something-ness', the 'looking-away-from-this-immediacy-ness' of the thoughts. Then make a list of each item (following each with either (E) or (T).

I'm hungary - T
Heat on my skin - E
tasting - E
Where is this I - T
What is the truth - T
breathing -E
Hearing - E
Seeing - E
Note each thought as "the theought that.. (this)", "the thought that .. (that)". Then let me have your list.
Sorry Mark I don't know what you want from me here.

All of a sudden I feel very conflicted one minute I get it the next I don't! Very frustrating.

The last time I saw through it was wonderful, I really saw the truth and within minutes it was gone. I want that back.

Thanks for your patience Mark, sorry I'm not understanding everything you are asking.

Olivia

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide please

Postby ElPortal » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:33 am

Hi Olivia,

Thanks for that response.
Mark: Note each thought as "the theought that.. (this)", "the thought that .. (that)". Then let me have your list.
Olivia: Sorry Mark I don't know what you want from me here.
No worries, you're doing great. So now, go down your list:-
I'm hungary - T
Heat on my skin - E
tasting - E
Where is this I - T
What is the truth - T
breathing -E
Hearing - E
Seeing - E
.. and re-write each item as follows:

1. Where is it a (T) re-write it as 'the thought that... eg 'what is the truth - T' will become 'the thought: what is the truth?'
And 2. Wherever there is reference to 'I' or 'my' re-phrase it without the 'I' and 'my' eg 'I'm hungry - T' might become 'the thought of hunger

As you do this, spend some time noticing whether the feeling changes. Does it feel more personal, less personal? Does it feel truer, or less true?

Don't forget to report back on all the sensations felt as you read, and as you consider.
The last time I saw through it was wonderful, I really saw the truth and within minutes it was gone. I want that back.
As I wrote at the outset:-
If you work with me we will not be looking into any better experience, or state of consciousness, or any permanent state at all. We will simply be looking into what has always, and can only ever, be the case. How do you feel about that? I mean literally, 'how do you FEEL about that'? ie what sensations (honestly, in detail) come up when you read that?
Please spend time noticing all the bodily sensations (E) which are felt as you consider your statement, and as you consider what I wrote. Note them down in detail (E) and report back. Is it ok for these sensations (if there are any) to be there, in this moment? Is Life happening any other way than these sensations, right now?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Bokkie
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Re: Guide please

Postby Bokkie » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:13 am

Hello there Mark,

Ok let's go!

Thinking hunger
Where is this I?
What is the truth?
As you do this, spend some time noticing whether the feeling changes. Does it feel more personal, less personal? Does it feel truer, or less true?
The 'thinking hunger' now feels much less personal. Thinking hunger feels truer, the others just feel like questions.
The last time I saw through it was wonderful, I really saw the truth and within minutes it was gone. I want that back.
How I feel towards the above statement: frustration and sadness that I just can't see this!
When I look for myself I never find anything, yet I still think 'I' exist! I just can't seem to get this. Intellectually I know that I cannot find what does not exist. I'm holding onto something, just gotta keep going until I get it I suppose.

Sorry that was off course I just had to vent.
If you work with me we will not be looking into any better experience, or state of consciousness, or any permanent state at all. We will simply be looking into what has always, and can only ever, be the case. How do you feel about that? I mean literally, 'how do you FEEL about that'? ie what sensations (honestly, in detail) come up when you read that?
Ok, I feel really happy now with your statement. I'm happy to 'simply look' now because i really want to know what the hell is actually going. I'm happy to not be in a state permanently now. I just want the truth.
Is Life happening any other way than these sensations, right now?
No it is not. There is just happy. There is just breathing, there is just hearing, there is just being, Mark there is this feeling of just wanting to get it now, I still feel this sense of 'me' so strongly. I'm stuck.

Olivia


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