Desperate to see! Can you help me?

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Jillian1
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Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Desperation to see has brought me to Liberation Unleashed. I've experienced a couple deaths recently--of people who were closest to me. What happened to them? Where did they go? I'm almost done reading "Gateless Gatecrashers" and I've been trying on my own to look. I've been getting many "Aha" moments, but this sense of self remains. I would love and appreciate help looking.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:
What I expect from this is the ability to see the truth of what is real and what isn't. Although I don't expect any more than that, there are other things I would like to happen. I would like my life to be infused with a profound sense of peace. I would like this mind/body mechanism to run smoother, be more a part of the flow, experience less congealing, less suffering. I would like to kick destructive and compulsive tendencies (especially around food, exercise, and body image). I would like to feel more able to help others. I would like more clarity and equanimity with my feelings, sensations, thoughts.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been practicing vipassana meditation and self inquiry for over 25 years. I have a daily meditation and yoga practice. I've taken various psychedelic substances in the past, done long periods of water fasting, remained in solitude for many months, engaged 40 day meditation sits, held hands with the dying (as a hospice volunteer and recently with loved ones). Although I have had intense experiences of liberation in which I lost track of identity, it has always come back. Lately I've been experiencing extreme exhaustion and I suspect it is this remaining sense of self that is exhausting me. Maybe it is exhausting itself?

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:12 pm

Hi Jillian,

Welcome to LU - and thank you for the introduction. I can walk along with you - see where we end up. :)

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:28 pm

Hi John,

Thank you so much for joining me! I went to your site and read the "about" section. I'm really excited and reaching out to take your hand. I would love it if you could hold my hand through this. I have a lot of fear. Yet the desire to see is burning.

Last night I was full of searching most of the night. I wasn't able to find the "I" or "mind." There are images, sensations, talking, sound--but where does mind exist? Is it in the brain? I don't have a way to experience it directly. Yet I have a sense of "my mind" (as if there is a me with an individual mind). There is also a noticing of an attachment around feelings. And a strong sense of attachment around this notion of love. It's as if I can keep love here by believing in a me. There is fear that if I relinquish control (which is the sense of I) the terrain will actually be or get sinister. Intellectually I understand that the only thing sinister is the clinging. I can't get stuck anywhere if I don't exist. And there is nothing sinister about a flow. Yet the fear continues and this gripping to a notion of myself as an entity that can cling to love is strong. I feel it in my chest.

There is also a lot of clinging around awareness. I feel it over my whole body and around my eyes.

Control seems to be a big issue. Afraid to let go of control. The idea of a flow is scary, yet also intensely desired.

I can't thank you enough for being here with me!
Juju

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:51 pm

Thank you for sharing in your last post about fear, flow, awareness etc. This a journey, and there's no knowing what will happen. But we do know that whatever we are, is here and good. :) Like rain, butterflies and pineapple. So in removing/seeing through ideas of who we are, we are only more at home, rather than in a facade of a home. Yes, there is always fear when we move away from what we know, but really, it is more a case of renewing and remembering ourselves - and dropping the pretence of a persona.

Don't spend any time trying to work anything out, or solve, or fix, or find the big idea to hold onto. We are done having to hold on to big ideas to make us feel safe.

You are sitting here with no name, no persona.

A part of you is running the assumption that you have a name, you are a persona.

We are going to get really clear on this pretence, this persona - ok? :)

When you see it, and the energy and effort that goes into maintaining it - you might just come to being through with it.

How's that all sound? :)

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:25 am

That sounds wonderful John. Thank you.
You are sitting here with no name, no persona.

Yes...sitting here with no name and no persona. There is a feeling of that.
A part of you is running the assumption that you have a name, you are a persona.

We are going to get really clear on this pretence, this persona - ok? :)

When you see it, and the energy and effort that goes into maintaining it - you might just come to being through with it.
How do you suggest I get clear on the pretense? I would like to see the part that is running the assumptions. It would be lovely if energy could be freed up from that.

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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:04 am

That sounds wonderful John. Thank you.
You are sitting here with no name, no persona.

Yes...sitting here with no name and no persona. There is a feeling of that.
Savour that feeling as often as the desire arises. Get a flavour for it. Notice any sense of space opening up with no name, no persona, losing self-definition, just sitting here, reading this is exquisite enough, it needs no commentary, no gripping onto, it is timeless and here. Relax. :) You are here.
A part of you is running the assumption that you have a name, you are a persona.

We are going to get really clear on this pretence, this persona - ok? :)

When you see it, and the energy and effort that goes into maintaining it - you might just come to being through with it.
How do you suggest I get clear on the pretense? I would like to see the part that is running the assumptions. It would be lovely if energy could be freed up from that.
Look in the mirror - see the one running the pretence.

Share what you find - whatever it is.

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:17 am

Savour that feeling as often as the desire arises. Get a flavour for it. Notice any sense of space opening up with no name, no persona, losing self-definition, just sitting here, reading this is exquisite enough, it needs no commentary, no gripping onto, it is timeless and here. Relax. :) You are here.
Yes, there is a sense of limitlessness and peace.

I will now go look in the mirror "for the one running the pretense." I will write what I find.

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:35 am

Look in the mirror - see the one running the pretence.

Share what you find - whatever it is.
First I see a body and face. Then I feel sadness. As I stare the face changes. I see particles, vibrations, movement. I see other faces. There is fear. I see an old woman, a young woman, then the thought "when will this be over. I'm tired!" There is a feeling of emptiness. I see a bunch of flesh, hair--a stranger that belongs to no one. I marvel at how little I recognize myself when I look in the mirror lately. I have a powerful sense of not belonging, of being nobody, of not existing--but it doesn't bring an exuberant feeling. It brings sadness. There never was a person here. All the hopes, efforts, fantasies, and energy spent trying to create a someone were pointless. And there is recognition that these are just thoughts, yet the feeling of sadness seems to be sticking to something--what? Is it this face? Is the sadness simply a part of this body? Is it in the cells passed down generation after generation? And why is the physical experience getting labeled as sadness?

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:35 am

Okay, there's a story about failure. Perhaps it can't let go of itself because it hasn't yet succeeded at becoming something more? The pretense? The one running the pretense? How does it look?

It is not to be seen, but there is a whole lot of thoughts and feelings about it! Why so much congealing, sticking in this one spot? Or is there even a sticking? Who can say? What can say? Thoughts are everywhere. Feelings come and go. This has been witnessed over and over. How many more times until the witness goes? Until the sense of "I" weakens enough that the thoughts arise aware of themselves with nothing in the way?

There is a creative force everywhere spouting sensations, sounds, images. But the "I" doesn't think it is everywhere. Of course the "I" is a thought, it doesn't think. But what is doing all the thinking? Is anything thinking? Or do thoughts just appear? And who, what, where, how do they appear?

What is asking this question right now? The question itself? Did it want to come onto the computer screen? Can a question have a desire? There is a feeling of being lost. There are only questions, nothing else...panic maybe?...a flow of THINGS that make no sense and really can't be accurately labeled. Assumptions are labeling assumptions?

I'm going to go meditate now, because that is what I know how to do! That is where I go for a sense of self, a sense of identity--as backward as it seems! I'm going to go disappear into the appearance of nothing--where I feel anchored to years of practice and knowing how to practice. I'm going to go calm down. But I will be back to check for any word from you and I look forward to continuing.

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:20 am

Hi John,

As I sat down to meditate a phrase kept repeating itself: "Dear John, please release me from this abyss of longing." I'm witnessing myself compulsively seeking liberation like an alcoholic (in the full throws of addiction) seeks a drink. Perhaps this whole thing is coming to a head?

In tonight's meditation I experienced a lot of pain in my knees and hips. Awareness sinks into the painful sensations with full acceptance and watches as the energy trapped inside gets released. The hard knots turn into a flow that floods the whole body and creates a sense of well being. Is identity like these painful knots? Is it simply resistance, trapped energy waiting for acknowledgement or acceptance to be released?

The "pretense" is the seeking. It's a cosmic joke; because it can never attain itself, it lives in the seeking?

I don't feel authentic. Yet I don't know how to be authentic. I feel like I've always known I don't exist. I've been playing the game of being a person. Now I'm playing the game of searching for liberation on this forum--and using a false name too! There is terror of being discovered as a fake--a robot. As a child I experienced trauma and a lot of disassociation. I'm pretty good at disassociation. Thoughts come so fast now I can't track them, just a flurry of images, garbled sounds, half sentences....and now that flurry falls away into emptiness.

Energy swamps the nervous system. Acceptance of whatever is arising widens. An old story of pain is welcomed into my heart. Now that energy floods me too. The thought comes that I have seen through the illusion countless times. Yet at every wrinkle there is a constriction followed by an even greater expansion. Perhaps it is simply a matter of growing into more and more grace? Becoming more graceful with growth?

On psychedelics I died several times. There is always panic before a death. Maybe this is my dance? My life long dance in which I work to master these thresholds of change without so much tripping?

I realize I'm a handful. Thank you for walking with me.

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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:59 am

Well, we're all handfuls LOL :) - each on our own journey of denial and discovery. By the way, no-one - especially me - can give you anything, but together, you might come to seeing things differently. At the end of the day, the only thing that changes is perception. So again, we can relax and know that any assumptions or expectations we have are perceptions to be seen as such, and thereby, they will drop for not being real. They are real thoughts, but we tend to believe content as real in terms of how the world is, how I am - and this is never the case. So we can know 100% that whenever we feel compelled to believe in an assumption - now is the time to step away and see it clearly as a perception - no more, no less.

As regards not existing, we need to be very clear about this - because the pain of seeking tends to lead us to escapism, and running away from ourselves into some nether world of awareness LOL - anything but life :D

But it is quite the opposite, what we running away from are OUR perceptions. And running away from them is pretty good evidence that we see them as true. :) - so on the contrary, we move towards perceptions, curious as to how we see the world, ourselves - and especially curious about those perceptions which we have assumed for years to be the case.

So - you exist. Most beautifully, as every other living being.

And we can look at our idea of ourselves - allow the possibility to be wide open to see 'who we are' in terms of our ideas and perceptions. Rather than run away from, go towards the pretence, become familiar with how it shows up, and how we imbue it with being true. We are not bad for having done it, its just a part of this journey - being open, being clear, being loving, and giving ourselves a break. :)

Ok, this was just going to be a short response as I am shooting off to a meeting :) - but have a read, absorb, respond as you wish, and we'll catch up later.

Much love,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:42 pm

I love what you wrote here. It all resonated deeply with me. Thank you.
As regards not existing, we need to be very clear about this - because the pain of seeking tends to lead us to escapism, and running away from ourselves into some nether world of awareness LOL - anything but life :D
Yes! I see how this plays out for me over and over.
But it is quite the opposite, what we running away from are OUR perceptions. And running away from them is pretty good evidence that we see them as true. :) - so on the contrary, we move towards perceptions, curious as to how we see the world, ourselves - and especially curious about those perceptions which we have assumed for years to be the case.
I especially love this and I am curious and cultivate curiosity in my practices.
Rather than run away from, go towards the pretence, become familiar with how it shows up, and how we imbue it with being true.
I would like to do this.

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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:20 pm

Write a letter to you titled: HOW I SEE MYSELF.

Start with, "I see myself as..." and write like the wind. Write what comes directly.

Thank you,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm

I am a girl who hates herself. I'm full of postures, none of which are real. On my last Ayahuasca journey a part of my consciousness was yelling at me--you are a fraud! I said "yes, yes, I am a fraud. I can see that. I love that too. Tell me more, and kept sitting in my meditation pose. But the pose itself became so painful. The knowingness that I am a fraud became so acute. I don't love anything. In fact I am furious with the whole charade. I'm seeking the truth? Really? Perhaps what I'm seeking is really some kind of suicide. I'm stuck in a spiritual search that really boils down to slitting my wrists in slow motion. I hate the world! And I want out!

I am a girl who is really sick. I have pain in my joints and muscles. Pain in my neck. Pain and fury and fear all mixed up.

I am a girl with brown frizzy hair. She looks old. Now she looks young. Oh yes, I'm beautiful. I'm young. I'm 50 years old. I am a girl who doesn't even know she's a girl. She is all over herself with lust! She masturbates in her consciousness, in her meditation that is all she is doing. She's masturbating, making herself into something special. Some special feeling of energy rising through her gut. It's no different then a sex addiction. The clitoris misses being stroked.

I am a girl who has lost it. Who looses it constantly. Is it sanity or insanity flowing out and returning? She thinks she's special because she has a poetic ear, but the moment she puts herself out--she hates herself.

I am a girl who is hungry--who is constantly eating or thinking about food or fasting or exercising because she is thinking about how she shouldn't be eating so much or she should eat certain foods, not other foods. And the whole fucking thing is a contradiction! Every thought in her head is met with a contradicting thought! I am a girl who is one fucking huge contradiction which is why I never get anywhere. It's a train wreck that keeps on moving, keeps on going mysteriously.

I am a girl who is completely lost. There is nowhere to hang on, no real way to define myself. It's all just going so fast, the thoughts constantly cancelling themselves out. I go to meditation to calm down, to feel good. I take refuge in the stillness of my body, no matter how much it hurts from sitting for such long periods without moving. The stillness is my anchor. It's my refuge. I cling to it like a drowning woman clings to a buoy.

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Jillian1
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Re: Desperate to see! Can you help me?

Postby Jillian1 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:48 pm

Well, I just got back from a walk and poured myself out in that last post. I see now that I didn't follow your instructions. I like your instructions and I will attempt to follow them as soon as I can get back to the computer.


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