If you're ready to look, start here.

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby Bill » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:39 am

If you're new and want to get started, tell a bit about yourself and what you expect.

User avatar
choupick
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 am

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby choupick » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:21 am

Hi, I'm new and looking to get started. I have some experience with zen Buddhism. I not really expecting anything per say, just trying to see reality as it is. Before I got posting rights I was just lurking around and I was following one of the threads. While following along, I had a pretty profound experience. I would say that maybe I truly realized "no self". The koan I was working on seemed ridiculously obvious after this event. I spent the next several hours completely amused at the simplicity and obviousness of it all. I laughed at sounds and shapes and felt extreme compassion for everything else. Then I woke up this morning and while I still "know" there is no self, I don't feel much different. The koan (and a few others) are still solved, but I can't really recall the experience I had or the thread I was reading in order to try to recreate it... So, that's about it for me. How about you?

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby Bill » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:27 am

Welcome and nice to meet you.

Yes, we have so much good material on the site, including the Gateless Gatecrashers
book, that it is very likely you have seen through the illusion. This has happened to many
just from reading others threads. This is Incredible really as we all have
devoured many other spiritual type books for years and never woke up from reading
them, no matter how profound they were. But it does happen here!

We'll go ahead and see if there's some loose ends remaining anywhere for you.
So how we work here is I'll ask you questions, you ponder them and
come back and answer with your 100% honesty from your own experience. No book
stuff, no guru talk, just what you are thinking and experiencing yourself.
I ask that if you want to do this, to commit to posting at least once a day.

Is choupick the name you want to use in the dialogue or is there another name
you'd prefer here?
Where are you in the world, physically? This will help in knowing how often
we can communitcate. I am on the west coast of US. GMT -7

What are your expectations of this awakening? You mentioned that you didn't feel different the next day.
What are you expecting? Please make a list of all the things you expect to be there from awakening.

There is no self at all in real life. None. Zero. Its just an illusion. Its just another thought in the head. And there never was a self.
What's your thought, reaction and feeling to that? What comes up for you.

Bill

User avatar
choupick
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 am

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby choupick » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:17 pm

Ok, for my name you can use choupick or just chou. I'm on the east coast. I have no problem posting once a day (or more).

Now on to business:

"What are your expectations of this awakening? You mentioned that you didn't feel different the next day.
What are you expecting? Please make a list of all the things you expect to be there from awakening."

To be honest I didn't expect anything even the event itself. As I mentioned I've practiced zen buddhism for a year or so. I had just finished meditating on a koan for 30 minutes or so and I jumped on the computer. I stumbled on your site via a buddhist forum. I was already intellectually aware of the concept of "no self." So, at first I was kind of unimpressed with the site. I opened a bunch of old liberation threads in several tabs and was just randomly reading through. At one point I was following what the guide said and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I "saw" that there was no self. I saw the void. The koan I was working on fell apart. It was obvious. So were my other two favorite koans. I spent the next several hours enjoying the freedom of it all. Then I went to bed. When I woke up I didn't know what to expect. Who does? But as my day went on I tried to "see" the void again and I couldn't. I still know that there is no "me" but is it normal to not be able to "see it" at will? Even more odd, for the life of me I can't remember what I was reading that caused it or what it was. It's not really frustrating, just kind of an odd longing to experience it again. So I guess the TL;DR is: I had a profound event, but the next day the knowledge remains but the event seems like a shadow or dream.

"There is no self at all in real life. None. Zero. Its just an illusion. Its just another thought in the head. And there never was a self. What's your thought, reaction and feeling to that? What comes up for you."

I feel free from many years of bullshit and felt overwhelming compassion for those that hadn't seen it. Even plants and animals oddly enough. It's day two and the euphoria is "wearing off" so the feeling isn't strong, but it's there whenever I'm mindful.

So, does any of this make sense to you?

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby Bill » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:52 pm

Yes Chou it does make sense.

The seeing thru happens.... and then as time goes by that seeing experience becomes somewhat distant, but we
still have the knowledge as you say of what was revealed. You may or may not be able to see this again in the future. Chances are though you'll get glimpses as some of us do. The glimpse is all we're about here as it cannot really be unseen once it happens. and it really only takes a second or two of what we call pure LOOKING.

So you have no real expectations... other than maybe wanting to get that experience back, which is fairly normal I would say. That is good on the few expectations. The fewer the better. We've found that it most always turns out different than what people were thinking/expecting.

So let's just play with this for awhile and let me ask you a few questions.

We have a koan of sort. I call it Ilona's Gem
Tell me what this means to you:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it’s a very simple thing that needs to be resolved….
There is this thought I… and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think….
It clicks!
It’s very very simple.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I could sum up our site here in a few sentences that would be it.
Tell me what it means to you.

A few more questions.

What is the difference between thoughts and the I/me/self ?

Is there anything that could be called a self ?

Take your time and give full complete responses coming from your true experience.
Glad you're here!!


Bill

User avatar
choupick
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 am

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby choupick » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:28 pm

"Well it’s a very simple thing that needs to be resolved….
There is this thought I… and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think….
It clicks!
It’s very very simple."

Mu! To quote joshu, hahaha. It means the "I" is empty. it's nothing. Everything that concerned me so was just a dream produce by a thought machine. "I" am just along for the ride.

"What is the difference between thoughts and the I/me/self ?"
I used to believe that the self created thoughts. Then I "learned" that the self is an illusion and thoughts just happen. Then I saw that the self is truly nothing.. and it was the most amazing nothing ever.

"Is there anything that could be called a self ?"
My physical body and brain is a self maker of sorts I suppose. there is no self to be concerned with. No self to get angry or to like or dislike anything.

Today was absolutely ordinary. Except that it wasn't. I guess I will get the hang this, whatever it is. Now I fully understand why zen masters don't try to explain it. It does sound quite crazy...

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby Bill » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:29 am

Excellent work chou, it s apparent from your answers to me you that have seen.

I just have a few more questions for you to verify this.
If you can, give me some real meat in your answers. I want enough
to know for sure that this illusion has been seen through.
Convince me. Take your time and give full complete answers from your own experience.


OK here goes:

What is real? What is imaginary? How can you tell the difference?

Who or what controls the body? Do 'you'? If not who does?

What's the relationship between direct experience, and thoughts?

User avatar
choupick
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 am

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby choupick » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:36 pm

What is real? What is imaginary? How can you tell the difference?
The only thing that is real is what we perceive through our senses. All the things we associate with those perceptions are imaginary. Sound is real. "Good" sound or "bad" sound is imaginary.
Who or what controls the body? Do 'you'? If not who does?
In a mechanical sense the brain controls the body. It receives inputs and reacts to these inputs with a series of actions. There are apparently some parts of the brain that when they work together create a "virtual reality" that give the illusion of control, but then it does whatever it wants anyway. For instance I feel like I decided to write this message, but as I was writing I suddenly decided to get some coffee. I feel like a made a choice, but I could not tell you when, how, or why.
What's the relationship between direct experience, and thoughts?
This is a more difficult question for me. It is apparent that direct experience can cause thoughts. It is also apparent that "I" often think about direct experience. So there is a sort of causal relationship in some cases. Of course the are the thoughts that are like waves washing in and out regardless of reality. I'll give you an example to maybe make it more clear: Before I was awake I would sometimes watch kids shows with my son, where they would play some "crappy" kids music. Later my brain would replay this music over and over. It used to bother me that I couldn't shut it off. Yesterday when my brain started playing some of this music, for the first time it was enjoyable in a way. I didn't have to stop it. I didn't want to stop it. It just was. It wasn't playing to me, it was me.

I hope that makes sense to you. I've come to grips with the fact that I may or may not see the void in it's full glory again. I sat down to meditate last night and for the first time knew what it was like to meditate without a goal. I just sat and enjoyed being. No timer, no counting, no bullshit. I just sat.

User avatar
Bill
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:08 am
Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby Bill » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:43 pm

chou - thank you for your responses.

As a finish up, I will ask you some final questions.
After this, we have a facebook aftercare group with lively discussion and lots of info
on what to do at this point, after the seeing.
Once we're done here, I send you an invite.

Our process here is that we ask you some final questions, that have been developed to be a good indication
that you have passed thru that gateless gate or not.
Other guides will take a look to see if anything is not clear or missing.
they may have a followup question or two, or may not.

So here goes.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

User avatar
choupick
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:23 am

Re: If you're ready to look, start here.

Postby choupick » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:45 pm

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Not a me separate from my brain and body. Not a me that was in control of anything or directed anything. The only me that ever was, is the me that's still here, flesh and bones.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
For as long as I can remember, up until the liberation, I felt as if "I" were something special. It was as if a little guy in my brain behind my eyes was controlling things. That little guy was the "true" me. I had a body that I controlled and I had a brain that did my bidding. As far as I was concerned there was a self that was not of this body or even this world. This feeling continued even after I began practicing Buddhism. I read about no self, chanted about no self, and even conceptualized no self, but deep inside I could not shake the feeling that there was a me directing it all. I continued trying to achieve stuff even in meditation. I felt out of kilter. This "me" or self took a lot of stuff personally and created a lot of suffering and anger on my part and for my family at times.

It turns out that there is is no me. It is an illusion, a fairy tale, a hologram in the mind. It is a projection that the brain uses for some evolutionary purpose. The thing is that, that "me" had nothing to do with reality. Just 30+ years of needless baggage.
3) How does it feel to see this?
It was at first amazing. Liberating. Freeing. Then it was ordinary. I woke up the next day and changed a dirty diaper and drove into town. I still loved my kid the same, I still kissed my wife good morning the same. School is the same, friends are the same. The only difference is that I'm awake for it all.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.
Well, It hasn't happened yet. Even my wife, when I told her, just smiled and said yeah right. Other than this board and her, I haven't really mentioned to anyone. Nor have I felt any need to yet.

I guess I would explain how there is not really a separate self from the body. That any separation you feel from your body and the universe is an illusion. That deep inside everyone, past the thoughts and random actions is something deeper than you ever imagined and when you see it it will change the way you see the world.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I really don't remember. I was following along on an old liberation (I had several open in different tabs). Honestly I thought the technique was a little silly at first. Too simple to work. At one point the guide asked the person to do something, look for something, or point at something. I did, and pow! there it was in all it's glory... emptiness. When I "came to", I closed my browser. Realized that the koan I've thought about for months was painfully obvious and then sat on the couch and smiled. I wish I had more, but that's it.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
Either the illusion of a self or my physical body, whichever makes more sense in context. I'm writing these between science classes and studying.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest