Bodymind in the works

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Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:38 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

Hi, I am very interested in the process of self-enquiry and experiential knowledge. After many years of seeking to improve myself and the quality of my life and others around me I've come to know about the possibility of awakening to my real nature, and I believe that this is the right path for myself to embark on. I would like to kindly request for a guide.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?


I am very conscientious, and I would appreciate any suggestions to deepen my work. I would also like to be able to engage the body more in this process of transformation. It would be great to sharpen my self-observation skills with your help, and free my heart from the obstacles that stop me from flowing.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

I have been practicing meditation and Jnana yoga on my own for a few months. I read from various sources, and I am aware now that meditation is a 24 hour process whose focus is the understanding of the real self and the growing realization that the ego is a construction of the mind. I learn something new every day.

I am very interested in the nature of thought and psychological time, and I have found the dialogues between Krishnamurti and Bohm very helpful. Reading helps me sort out concepts that have been ingrained in my psyche. Reflecting on the nature of thought has the effect of supporting me in disengaging from it, because it is very revealing for me to understand how the mind works. I think I would benefit enormously from a dialogue with a patient guide who is ready to be thorough with me so that I can finally envisage glimpses of reality.

I'm very excited at the prospect of dispelling my own myths and fog! Thank you very much for this opportunity :)

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:22 am

Hi,

Thank you for your honest post and welcome to LU!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.
After many years of seeking to improve myself and the quality of my life and others around me I've come to know about the possibility of awakening to my real nature
Could you please let me know how you define yourself? Are you this body, are you your mind or a combination of both?
Who are you?

What do you think is your real nature and in which way would life be different once you have woken up to it?
Please let me know your expectations of how life will be different once you have "woken up".

Kind regards,
Alex

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:01 am

Hi, Alex!

Thank you so much for agreeing on being my guide in this process. I really appreciate it. My name is Paloma. Let's do it!
Could you please let me know how you define yourself? Are you this body, are you your mind or a combination of both?
I feel I'm a combination of both, but I also feel somewhere deep inside that I must be more than this. If I was my body and my mind I would be able to control them somehow, but when I notice the thoughts that stick or the body behaviours (mostly tummy aches and fatigue due to stress and anxiety) that control my moods and energy, I doubt that's entirely the case. I also notice that when I don't pay attention to the thoughts I have I'm able to come up with other ways to deal with the world that are different, it seems like tapping on something/somewhere else. I also seem to remember a time in my childhood when I felt freer and more "me".

What do you think is your real nature and in which way would life be different once you have woken up to it?
I don't know what my real nature is ... I might get glimpses of it. I just feel a stern need for freedom that's behind a lot of what I do or think. Very often I would like to be closer to people, something like a yearning.

Waking up to my real nature would be living a life that is able to fully take into account the parameters of the moment, the details, the reality, without such a fixation on the future or the next moment bringing what's needed. An existence that deals with the moment, this instant what all that's in it, not wanting to bypass it. I expect more understanding and seeing what is here, instead of avoiding what I don't like. It would be a life of presence as opposed to judgement on reality.

Who are you?


I am a hidden me, somewhere backstage. There is an actress at the forefront who plays to be me in a very convincing way and who has taken over my identity :)

Thank you, Alex!

Paloma

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:41 am

Hi Paloma,

OK, great - yes, lets get started :-)
I am a hidden me, somewhere backstage.
Ok, so lets try to lift the curtain and see if there is anyone hiding backstage at all, shall we?
There is an actress at the forefront who plays to be me in a very convincing way and who has taken over my identity :)
Haha... thats funny... but yes it does feel like that occasionally...

Lets first have a look at how we can "find" something in this worldly life as a human being...
Would you agree that you have to use your senses - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling - plus thought if you want to find something? These are the tools that you have at your disposal and without sense perception and thought you would not be able to experience really anything. Agree?

Lets assume you do... What we will do first is looking at your direct experience of seeing, hearing, tasting and feeling with the goal of finding out if this direct experience matches with the (thought based) ideas and concepts that you have of how this experience should be like... To give you a better idea how this works I will ask you to do this little exercise:
Go to the kitchen and get a small piece of food - maybe a nut or a raisin or a piece of fruit... put it on the desk in front of you. Now sit down and look at it. Now close your eyes and imagine how it will taste when eating it. Try to imagine the flavours that will be experienced. Do this for 2-3 minutes. Now open your eyes and eat it. Close your eyes and chew it slowly and experience the full flavours...

Now... How different was that to just thinking about eating it? Did thinking about eating it get in any way close to the real experience? Please note in which way thinking about an experience differed from really experiencing it first hand.

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:50 pm

Hi, Alex

Thank you so much for your lovely message.
Ok, so lets try to lift the curtain and see if there is anyone hiding backstage at all, shall we?
Please, let's lift that curtain soon! ;-)
without sense perception and thought you would not be able to experience really anything. Agree?
Yes, I follow you, and I will now do the exercise with a piece of apple.
How different was that to just thinking about eating it?
The main difference when actually eating the apple was the physicality of it and the intensity. I could not really feel the apple in my mouth when I thought about it, I might not be very good at mental 3D rendering! There's also the closeness to it that was missing, and the possibility to be surprised about it was also not there. Most definitely, in this case, when thinking about the apple the enjoyment wasn't really there (maybe because I was not that hungry/didn't feel so much like eating it). I could however feel my mouth watering at the thought of it. Eating it however did give me an unexpected pleasure. I wasn't that hungry, but I enjoyed it.
Did thinking about eating it get in any way close to the real experience? Please note in which way thinking about an experience differed from really experiencing it first hand.
In this case, thinking about it didn't come that close to the real experience. The thought was much dimmer, light headed, indirect. The real experience had more flair, more adventure to it (things could happen, such as a little bursting of juice from the apple's flesh). I was more open about the experience than about the thought. The experience had the added element of action, which freed me from thought. I had to almost "push" thought into the experience (in order to remember what to write about it later), and it interfered with the enjoyment and tasting of the apple. I do remember that when I'm hungry and I enjoy my food I often think about how lovely it is to eat it, though, but of course I don't make an effort to memorise the feeling to recall it later (unless I'm purposefully practising mindfulness).

Having said this, I think that this thinking exercise would have been more luminous had I been hungry and yearning for the apple, but then after eating it the thought would have also paled in comparison! I wonder what would have happened if I had been afraid of eating the apple. Maybe the discomfort caused by the thought would have been much worse than eating it, but then the experience would have also had the fullness of reality.

Thank you for this, Alex. I'll keep on examining my thought/experience tandem today! I can see how it can be useful in other type of situations.

Cheers

Paloma

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:25 am

Hi Paloma,

Great! Well done!

Yes, lets examine this experience more closely... lets see if it really is "your" experience... if it belongs to a separate you/I/self.

Sit down and close your eyes. Simply listen. There is sound. There are some thoughts stating "I hear a bird. Now I hear a car..." When you compare the pure experience of listening to what thought says about it, does it match?
Try to find this separate entity called "me/I/self" that seems to be doing the listening to sound... is there one?
If you think you have found something, please try to localise the border that defines/contains the self. Is there a border to be found between you and the sound? Or is there only sound arising... no separate listener, no borders, simply sound...

Try the same exercise with physical sensations. Sit down and close your eyes. Simply be aware of the physical sensations that arise. There might be a tingling in your feet, maybe a contraction in your chest... Thoughts might happen, stating "My feet are tingling!" Is this true? Does it match this experience?
Try to focus on one of these sensations and now again try to find the separate entity "me/I/self" that seems to be experiencing these sensations... is there an entity to be found? Or are there simply sensations arising? Who is experiencing these sensations..? Who owns them? Anyone?

Regards,
Alex

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:57 am

Hi, Alex

Thank you for your careful reading of my reply and for your exercises.
When you compare the pure experience of listening to what thought says about it, does it match?
I hear the sound of the fan on my desktop computer, the wall clock ticking. My thoughts noticing their presence don't have much importance, the reality of their sound is more captivating than the humble noticing of their existence. I guess these sounds they don't bother me. If I hear the neighbours chatting away loudly with their tv blaring out when I'm trying to read at night, for instance, then my judgement of dislike seems to handshake with that noise and feed off each other as the annoyance grows. At the moment I'm peaceful, so my commentary is not mediated by emotion, and it doesn't contribute much to the experience of listening. I can ignore it and appreciate the texture and characteristics of the sounds instead.
Try to find this separate entity called "me/I/self" that seems to be doing the listening to sound... is there one?
I do feel that I have something to do with the sound being heard because it seems to appear when I place my attention on it. In this sense I have a strong feeling of me listening to the sounds.

In the case of body sensations, I might have explored this issue further (out of necessity) and made an effort to detach myself from them. Although if I say "I have a stomach ache" I very much identify the thought with the sensation, but at the end the sensation in its unravelling "wins", as it is the one being described by the thought. So my thoughts follow the sensation and accommodate to what's happening. I am also learning to stay quite on my body sensations and allow the body to run the commentary.
Is there an entity to be found? Or are there simply sensations arising? Who is experiencing these sensations..? Who owns them? Anyone?
I identify the body as the platform of the sensations, a sort of mediator in them as they arrive to be sensed, and I don't feel a "me" so much in the mix as I used to. I guess the sense of me is stronger with sounds being heard than with inner physical sensations due to my practise in listening to the body and not wanting to identify with pain.

Thank you for encouraging me to think about this, Alex. I'll keep at it. If I don't hear from you til Monday, I wish you a happy weekend. I could write tomorrow, but not on Sunday (I'll be away from my computer). Please, feel free to write just in your own time.

Regards,

Paloma

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:47 am

Ok, I will answer on Monday!
Enjoy your weekend!

When you find some time, try to look at this "sense of me"... Is it always the same? Does it change from situation to situation? Is it maybe behind your eyes when you read a book and then maybe in your chest when you perform some physical activity? What makes it a sense of "me"? Does the physical sensation itself the you "Its me!"? What does label a sensation as such?

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:49 am

Sorry, last sentence should read:
Does the physical sensation itself tell you "Its me!"? What labels a sensation as such?

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:05 pm

Hi, Alex

Thank you again for your reply and your very interesting questions :)
When you find some time, try to look at this "sense of me"... Is it always the same? Does it change from situation to situation? Is it maybe behind your eyes when you read a book and then maybe in your chest when you perform some physical activity?
I'll be looking at this over this weekend. You seem to imply that I should try to investigate if it's a physical feeling. I guess it is in many ways, although it also lends itself to be considered a psychological entity, as in when I say "I feel well today" or "I don't want to do this". I will be noticing and noting down what I feel, and will write to you about it.
What makes it a sense of "me"? Does the physical sensation itself tell you "Its me!"? What labels a sensation as such?
When I drink a cup to tea the sense of me seems to permeate the whole encompassing decision of stretching the arm to pick the cup up, drinking a large enough sip that's more or less adequate for the temperature of the tea and my feeling of thirst, and then putting the cup down carefully to avoid spilling the liquid. My being present, if you like.

In terms of whether that sense of me remaining the same or not, and where it is located in the body, when picking the cup of tea it's not really physical, but the action and the following up of the action until it resumes, and the continuation in time of that action, the act of being awake and staying there after the tea is drunk, and with everything else that follows.

With regards to writing this email, the sense of me has maybe turned more to the whole conundrum of guessing and knowing what to write, being aware of my knowledge of English too, recalling my familiarity or not with this forum interface, withdrawing information from memory, searching for it in my mind. In the act of writing the sense of me is suspended, is watchful, is the overall flavour of the flow that gets registered. Sometimes it also reverts to the physical feeling of being cold, or feeling the need to stretch my legs out.

If I perform a physical activity, the sense of me might be more centered around my body. As if when having a shower, for instance, or looking at myself in the mirror. When my body is tired, as it was yesterday when coming back home. I could feel the sluggishness taking over my mind too, and I tried to persuade myself that that wasn't "me", that there was something else behind that I could refer to other than my being tired. In thas exercise I could tell the overpowering quality of matter over mind, hehe. I had to attend to the fact of feeling exhausted, and I could see how my thoughts were presided over this, and my choices too: I could not bring myself to doing several things that I wanted to do, and eventually had to leave them til the morning after.

Lately I don't seem to shake off a constant stomach upset, and the feeling of it reminds me all the time that "I have a stomach ache". I don't know if the "I have" is the same or not as the "It's me" or "I am", that's something that I definitely want to figure out, but not through thinking but though exploring my of experience.

You are asking what makes a sense of "me"? Well, let me tell you a story. Yesterday I found my hair band. I had lost it about three weeks ago, and I had worn everyday it for years. When I put it on again I felt it made me "very me" :) if that makes any sense, and I felt I could project myself to the world in a more effective way, because wearing those colours in my hair were a "very me" thing to do (which of course the world doesn't care about). Funny enough, I had been practising wearing other hair bands during that time, trying to be ok about it (but sill missing the hair band, although not as much as I thought I would). I tried to recognise that I am other than the physical self and that face in the mirror, specially now that my face is changing with age, surprising me with wrinkles from one day to another, etc.

I have to say that I am convinced that crossing that threshold of identifying so much with the physical appearance is one of the keys to no-self, and I wonder how I am going to do that (although I guess there's nothing to "do"). I often imagine what it would be like having that freedom. Incidentally say that I have had a cheeky laugh with my partner about our beloved Krishnamurti's hair style (pulling all his hair from one side to the other to maybe hide his baldness at the top), and thought about how regardless of not being self-centered people seem to stick to their quirks and personal styles, although I don't know to what extent.

Alex, would you mind to explain to me what you mean by "what labels a sensation as such" (as being me, I suppose)?

I appreciate that when you are asking about the "sense of me" you might not mean where is "the me" exactly, but the sense that I am me. Kind of like saying "let's prove it", let's see that it exists. I think that if I think about this over the weekend I'd be able to answer your questions better.

Thank you for listening, Alex.

Have a lovely weekend!

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:16 am

Alex, would you mind to explain to me what you mean by "what labels a sensation as such"
Yes, sure... Lets do a practical exercise to clarify:
Sit down, relax, put your hands on the desk in front of you and close your eyes... notice how your attention focusses on one part of the body and then moves on to the next. Maybe from your hands, to your chest to your legs and feet. Simply observe, don't interfere... Now focus on one of your hands. The sensation might be classified (or labeled) as a certain tingling, maybe some pressure... A thought comes up "This is my hand!" This classification/label is a thought specifying what this tingling has been identified as. The pure sensation itself does not say "I am a hand!" or "This is tingling!", does it?
If there would be no thought about the tingling/pressure - no label attached to it - would it still be "your hand on the desk"? Or would it just be an unidentified (not labelled) sensation? When a baby experiences "Hand on desk", do you think the baby knows that this is its hand, or that there is a desk the hand is resting on? Does it even know that this tingling is part of its body? Maybe it still has to learn what all this concepts are before it can identify itself with these sensations... Anyway...
When you focus on this sensation - what exactly are you feeling? A hand, a desk, both? Or does it simply depend on thought labelling the sensation as something specific? When you ignore thought about the sensation, what is there? Is there a hand? Is there a separate "I/self" that this sensation belongs to? Can you find a separate entity experiencing the sensation or is there simply the sensation arising? Is there a border to be found between the sensation and an "I/self" that is meant to be the "feeler/owner" of this sensation?
You are asking what makes a sense of "me"? Well, let me tell you a story. Yesterday I found my hair band. I had lost it about three weeks ago, and I had worn everyday it for years. When I put it on again I felt it made me "very me"
Did the physical sensation of having the hairband on tell you that this feels "very me"? Or is this only a thought - a story - that you identify with? if it would be the same hairband you put on, but there is no memory/story attached to it, would this sensations still feel so "very me"?

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:14 pm

Hi, Alex

You got me thinking all over the weekend about the sense of me :) After reading your last email I did realise that you are right in that thought propels the sense of "it's me" out there in the open. I can see that when I ignore thought, body sensations are providing some commentary on the action, on the event, on the physicality, and this flow of information is bare and less localised. It is as if the non-verbal realm was like an abstract texture, a presence with multiple shapes, a stream of non-thought. But I still feel the perceiver as being some kind of "me" center, or that "me" centralises the information.
If there would be no thought about the tingling/pressure - no label attached to it - would it still be "your hand on the desk"? Or would it just be an unidentified (not labelled) sensation?


It would be more of an unindentified sensation, but it would be perceived by "me" at that moment, by my awareness, my ability to receive this information. Or at least I would be very close to the sensation, and therefore be the perceiver. I remember my mum and me were sitting together in her house a few months ago, and suddenly there was a small earthquake. We immediately looked at each other in disbelief because we'd never felt anything like that before. It was as I we were dreaming it, it was so surreal. I wonder if babies feel reality as "surreal", meaning by this that they have no way to verify if what's happening is real or not. It took me a while to understand what was going on, and it really felt as if time had stopped, because I had no way to label that feeling (the sofa I was sitting on shook and vibrated). After a second or two I said: "It's an earthquake!" and I was able to proceed and continue with my existence under the safety of logic once again fit in place. I know I'd be better off if I could perceive life with that freshness, and sometimes I think I do, just in glimpses.
When you focus on this sensation - what exactly are you feeling? A hand, a desk, both? Or does it simply depend on thought labelling the sensation as something specific?


I'm not feeling "a hand", I'm feeling some kind of three-dimensional pattern, and maybe some movement. I can ignore thought for a while and enjoy the vastness of this feeling. I kind of know where it is, so I imagine that it is a hand. Maybe I start imagining rather than knowing.
Is there a separate "I/self" that this sensation belongs to?
There's no sense of belonging.
Can you find a separate entity experiencing the sensation or is there simply the sensation arising? Is there a border to be found between the sensation and an "I/self" that is meant to be the "feeler/owner" of this sensation?
I feel an experiencer, not just the sensation arising ... I wouldn't say there's an owner, but a feeler, yes, there is. The border is not felt, it's more a combination of dimensions: the feeler and the sensation.
Did the physical sensation of having the hairband on tell you that this feels "very me"? Or is this only a thought - a story - that you identify with? if it would be the same hairband you put on, but there is no memory/story attached to it, would this sensations still feel so "very me"?
I can see that if there was not memory/story (I wear it in most of the pictures taken of me during the last few years) I would not have that feeling of recognising myself in it, but I think I would still like it a lot, although maybe not as much, and I would think that those colours agree with me, with my face. If I was not judging it according to my taste, it would be a different story. If I could forget for a minute who I was (my likes and dislikes) and look at the hairband from fresh, I might appreciate it for what it is.

I've been trying to find the "sense of me" these days. I think I place it more on the psychological, on the recognition of this person whose commentary on life keeps on going, this presence.

Thank your for your probing, Alex.

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:25 am

Hi Paloma,

Great observations!
I feel an experiencer, not just the sensation arising ... I wouldn't say there's an owner, but a feeler, yes, there is. The border is not felt, it's more a combination of dimensions: the feeler and the sensation.
Look again... What defines the sensation and what defines the feeler?
If there is no border between them in which way are they separate? Are they?
Look at the "feeler of the sensation" - is this entity maybe just another sensation arising? Where is it located? Maybe behind your eyes..?
What defines it as the "feeler" of the sensation? Maybe just another thought saying that this should be so..?
There's no sense of belonging.
Yes, well seen! "This belongs to me!" is just a thought about an experience, right? Doesn't mean that the experience really belongs to anyone... If it doesn't belong to anyone, can there be a feeler of a sensation?

Maybe this can be explained better using the example of thought... When thoughts arise, do they come from anywhere, a specific location? Do they go anywhere, do they vanish into a certain location or are they just here and gone?
When a thought arises, is there a controlling entity to be found that decides or controls what thought to think next?
Can you control your thoughts or are they simply arising based on the current experience and the conditioning that you have received over the years?

Try this:
Sit down and relax. Close your eyes and think about a number between 1 and 10. Did you decide which number to choose?
You might be thinking "OK... lets choose a number... let say 3! Ok, great I have been choosing 3!" But did you really?
Where did this 3 come from? Anywhere?

Regards
Alex

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby ssplash » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:47 am

Hi, Alex

Thank you so much for your message and your inspiring line of questioning.
Look again... What defines the sensation and what defines the feeler?
The feeler is the centralised aware ability to identify sensation. The sensation is the pristine upcoming newness.
If there is no border between them in which way are they separate? Are they?
There is no border, but there is a relationship and a difference. The feeling comes and it's felt, but it seems that the feeler can decide where to place the attention and what to think about it, or whether not to think at all!
Look at the "feeler of the sensation" - is this entity maybe just another sensation arising? Where is it located? Maybe behind your eyes..?
The feeler sometimes feels as another sensation, specially when thoughts come up from nowhere (when no attention is placed anywhere, for instance), but in general it is more like the placer of attention. I can't locate it in my head ... It's wherever it can reach. It feels all over my body, although it does seem very connected to the sight sense.
What defines it as the "feeler" of the sensation? Maybe just another thought saying that this should be so..?
Maybe thoughts name it and define it as a such.
Yes, well seen! "This belongs to me!" is just a thought about an experience, right? Doesn't mean that the experience really belongs to anyone... If it doesn't belong to anyone, can there be a feeler of a sensation?
Yes, but sensations don't belong to anyone but still exist ...
Maybe this can be explained better using the example of thought... When thoughts arise, do they come from anywhere, a specific location? Do they go anywhere, do they vanish into a certain location or are they just here and gone?
When a thought arises, is there a controlling entity to be found that decides or controls what thought to think next?
Can you control your thoughts or are they simply arising based on the current experience and the conditioning that you have received over the years?
I understand what you are saying about thoughts. It very much feels like this. Thoughts come up and I can't control most of them. Although sometimes we have to think about something (say, sort something out, find a solution) and we aim at thinking. Even then, our thoughts are based on all of those variables and parameters that you mentioned.
Sit down and relax. Close your eyes and think about a number between 1 and 10. Did you decide which number to choose?
You might be thinking "OK... lets choose a number... let say 3! Ok, great I have been choosing 3!" But did you really?
Where did this 3 come from? Anywhere?
It came from my psyche ... I do feel that I chose it, I mean, choosing is placing your attention on possibility. I guess my attention landed on that number, in this case it didn't matter which one. If I'm thinking about something important and I have to make a decision I have to force my mind to "produce" that line of thinking, break open that stream to decide what to do.

Thank you, Alex. I'll keep thinking about these things, see where that takes me :)

Cheers,

Paloma

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Re: Bodymind in the works

Postby Alexw » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:32 am

Hi Paloma,

I think we should have a closer look at "attention" as this seems to be a bit of a "sticky point" :-)
How does attention work...
There is no border, but there is a relationship and a difference. The feeling comes and it's felt, but it seems that the feeler can decide where to place the attention and what to think about it, or whether not to think at all!
It sure seems like there is such a controlling entity - at least we have been living with this belief for most of our lives, haven't we... how horrible would it be if there would be no control..? You would be completely at the mercy of what life has in store for you, wouldn't you? Does this idea scare you? Would you be afraid if there would be no "you" controlling anything?

Anyway, lets look at attention...
Sit down and relax (again :-)... First close your eyes and let the focus of attention flow. You might be aware of some physical sensation, some sounds, some smells... See how it moves without an I/self having to actively position it on a certain part of this experience. When something breaks the peace/silence, maybe a car passing by or a fly buzzing by, can you avoid that attention moves to this event? Is there a decider that places attention anywhere or does it always move automatically and freely to whatever is most prominent at the time?
Now open your eyes and do the same. Let your visceral attention move freely. When something suddenly moves in an otherwise quiet room, can you avoid your attention moving there?
Sure, you can think "Ok, now I will focus my attention deliberately on to the cup of tea in front of me.". The thought came up because of..? Why? Because there is a cup in front of you? Because you read my post? Who knows... Its only important to find out if there was an I/self in control of this thought. Did "you" decide that it should show up?
Now you will be looking at this cup and you will think "See... I can focus my attention at will. I am still looking at the cup! Haha!". But suddenly a thought appears... "I am hungry... what will I have for lunch today... hmm... ah... maybe I should ask XYZ to have lunch with me..? I like her and wouldn't mind asking her about this bedside table that I consider buying..." and off you go into thought land... Something happens... a car door is close and you realise "Ah, I have forgotten about the cup... But now again..." :-)
See what happens when you do this exercise - be 100% honest with yourself and don't believe anything thought says without double-checking if these controlling entities, that thought conjures up can really be found in direct experience... can they?
Yes, but sensations don't belong to anyone but still exist ...
Yes, true. Do they need an owner to exist? Do they have to be experienced by a separate experiencer?
I know, logical thought will say "Of course there is a separate ME, the subject, experiencing objects out there!", but is this really true? Does direct experience gel with this idea of how experiencing should be?
Maybe you have only learned and over time accepted this idea and it thus became an unquestioned belief... now its time to question this belief... is it true?
What if it is not true? What if there is no separate experiencer?
It came from my psyche ...
How is "psyche" experienced? Can you find this entity anywhere in direct experience? Or are there only thoughts happening and we call them "mind" or "psyche"..?

Regards
Alex


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