thank you

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Katrijn
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thank you

Postby Katrijn » Tue May 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Thank you for this opportunity.

During the past 2 years I have read maybe 100 books on non-duality, watched videos, etc. I have lots of intellectual "understanding" of the concepts (ha!). There were some "experiences" of "oneness" and there is a lot more peace, the emotions and neuroses are much less strong and much more brief. Life really has become so much easier. Thoughts about the past and future have lessened. Basically, much if not most of life is just fine the way it is.

Yet I have not seen through the belief in the self. I clearly see that I am not a body, not my thoughts, not my sensations or perceptions. However, this presence that is then still there (the knowing that I am here, experiencing) remains a personal presence. I cannot shake the belief that this presence is me (a kind of disembodied person). Again and again I get stuck on seeing that this presence is not personal, that it is not a limited me.

So, please help. I have tried some of the exercises from the app, have read most of the ebook and some of the forum. I need somebody to help me through the situation/questions that seem to be particular to this body-mind :-).
It is amazing to have found this forum. I have hope and no hope simultaneously! I understand nothing will really change, but I am tired of myself, if that makes any sense. I would like to appreciate the wonder of life without myself getting in the way.

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Sarah7
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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Tue May 12, 2015 5:06 pm

hey Katrijn
I'm Sarah and I'd be happy to guide you. have I spelt your name right?
have you looked around the site, do you know what we do?
Can you tell me what you are expecting here? How you think things will change?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Tue May 12, 2015 5:23 pm

Oh great, thanks for the response! Hello Sarah, yes you spelled my name right.
Yes, I understand the procedure and give my informed consent :-)
Thank you for guiding me.

What I am expecting:
When I question for myself, do exercises of this nature (where is this "I", who is looking, etc.), I get stuck on 2 levels. 1) I run into a big wall that screams at me that I am being an idiot with all this non-duality BS, since of course I exist. I may not know WHAT I am, but am 100% sure that I exist. Then I am stuck with inquiry. I exist, so how can I not exist?
2) Major resistance. I notice I am always drawn back to this and then get sidetracked with other important stuff (such as cleaning the kitchen) or feel such a strong sense of what I can only label "disgust" with all the questioning, and then I give up.
So I am expecting help of some sort with this. Someone to coach me through the parts where I give up. Someone who can explain the parts where I seem to run up against a wall, that sort of thing.

How do I think things will change?
There is a part of me that wants to believe all the grandiose BS (I will become a better person, be able to help others, become pure and spiritual and good, bla bla). But I do realise this is bullshit. The more realistic answer is that I think there will be less stress and stickiness to life. That it will be more fluid somehow. Hard to describe.
And finally I just want to KNOW. I don't want to live an illusion. I want to know how it really is.

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Sarah7
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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Tue May 12, 2015 7:08 pm

Lol Katrijn!
We will!
There are a few house keeping standard ground rules I need you to confirm before we start. And please let me know if there is anything you don't understand or are not clear on. OK!

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.
OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Tue May 12, 2015 7:30 pm

Ok, got it. I confirm having read the intro (had read it before) and the direct experience article (although the link you posted doesn't work for me, I found it by googling for it). I agree to the disclaimer. I am more than ok with leaving the other teachings and reading alone for a while. I don't think I can read "all there is, is awareness, and you are that" one more time! I will post at least once a day, usually after work, but during the day is likely to occur as well. I really want to give this 100%, NOW.
Thank you for your help.

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Sarah7
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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Wed May 13, 2015 7:50 am

Hi Katrijn
Thanks for that. OK then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Wed May 13, 2015 1:29 pm

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
For instance does it feel like it’s in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?


I experience “me” as a sensation in the middle of my field of consciousness, behind the eyes, like a point of view or a window onto reality. I am looking out from behind a relatively small window/opening onto the world. At the same time, it feels like “I” am that which animates a body, a kind of spirit-type thing (not solid at all) inhabiting this body and moving it around in the world. It feels pretty fixed behind the eyes and does not seem to change during the day. It is gone during sleep. It does not feel separate so much as all alone in the world. I mostly do not experience other people as others, but more as objects that move and speak! (Didn’t know that until I wrote it). In the middle of all this, thoughts and sensations pop up, without location (although they are more over here than over there) and without belonging to “me”, they just kind of appear and disappear. Sometimes a thought or sensation takes up all the space in the window, and I seem to see/experience nothing else.
So there is me, looking out/into the world, and then thoughts and sensations and other bodies appearing in this world. It feels like there are no others, just other bodies and different objects.
For me, like and dislikes, opinions and memories etc. are all thoughts. They show up. I am not sure I have a personality, except as a story I or others tell. Until recently I did believe I could chose, act and control. Looking now, I do not choose, act, do or control. Things happen. Thoughts happen. They do seem to be “my” thoughts, because there doesn’t seem to be anyone else they could belong to!

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

It definitely seems to reside behind the eyes, not in the rest of the body, but cannot be pinpointed exactly. When I try to focus on it, it seems to disperse, and then immediately coagulate there again. It is more like a feeling behind the eyes (a concentration or a light pressure). Not sure if that makes any sense. At times it also feels expanded, to include everything in my direct vision. So “me” then includes both what I see of my body and the room or whatever is in my field of vision. I seem to feel kind of spirit-like again?! Confusing...

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

No. Nothing exists outside the present moment. Thoughts about the past and future exist now. This is very obvious.

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?

“I” am always there, except when sleeping (?). So I would say my presence is permanent. There is always something, which I think of as “me”, experiencing reality. I am here, alive, present. If I were not present, I couldn’t experience anything.

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Sarah7
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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Thu May 14, 2015 7:46 am

Hi Katrijn
For me, like and dislikes, opinions and memories etc. are all thoughts. They show up. I am not sure I have a personality, except as a story I or others tell. Until recently I did believe I could chose, act and control. Looking now, I do not choose, act, do or control. Things happen. Thoughts happen. They do seem to be “my” thoughts, because there doesn’t seem to be anyone else they could belong to!
OK – so Im going to poke around a bit to find out where you are. Sometimes I may give you what seems like a very simple task. OK – so this is looking at labelling etc. You probably know this, that the mind is a labelling machine, but when does it label – before, during or after?

Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

Do you bring thoughts? How do you create a thought? Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Do you plan what thought you are going to have before you have it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Try to suppress your next thought before it arises. Does it work?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Thu May 14, 2015 11:51 am

Thank you Sarah, here is my response for the day.
Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise. Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
I wrote in a notebook first and then typed it here.

I am sitting on the couch, I feel the couch under my body, I hear birds in the garden, I feel my breathing in my chest, I feel the pressure of the pen in my hand, the feel of the paper gliding underneath. I see the cushion that I’ve put in my lap. I feel the pressure of my top and bottom front teeth on each other. I notice my breathing. I look into the garden and think everything is extra green. I think I don’t know what to write down next. I look at the clock to see how long I need to write. I look at the bird feeder. I think the birds like peanuts. I feel a twinge in my back. I notice a deep breath. I look at the carpet and think the squares in it make a pleasing pattern.
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
Tension, pulling in the wrist. birdsong. seeing of the table. the thought whether this is the correct method. deep breath. the thought this should be done more often. seeing the redness of the pen. the sensation of pulling around the mouth. the chest rising and falling. birdsong. blue ink on white page. breathing. the blue of the jeans. the brown of the couch. a bunch of sensations in the back somewhere. the thought to check the time. the thought that more than 5 minutes have already passed. the white lettering on the red pen appears as it turns in the fingers. breathing in the chest. birdsong. movement to readjust the back on the couch.
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?
The first exercise quickly started feeling stilted, fake. Putting “I” into everything started feeling wrong somehow. It was obvious that putting “I” in front of think did not make sense, for example. The second exercise felt much more natural. The lack of “I” in front of body parts felt new, but more free/natural (breath in the chest, for example). Definitely truer to drop the I/me.
If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
Very big difference and MUCH heavier feeling to anything with “my” added to it. Especially concerning the body. The body feels much lighter and less like a responsibility when it is just the leg, the hand, the tension in the back… Even “my” husband feels a bit ridiculous. Husband too. What is a husband?! How can we possibly use such a completely made-up concept?
Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?
Some of the time. Definitely mostly the body (my teeth, my leg, etc.) and also thoughts about things I need to do, remember, plan (activities): I need to buy fruit tomorrow. I should go for a walk later. I need to do this exercise.
I can easily see that the I label on body-parts is superfluous. It is not my body. I am not even sure it IS a body.The I in these thoughts is more like a convention/habit. It feels unnecessary.
The I in thinking about things to do seems necessary? Who else would do these things like buying fruit tomorrow? It is mainly about directing myself, thinking about doership, planning.
Do you bring thoughts? How do you create a thought? Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Do you plan what thought you are going to have before you have it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Try to suppress your next thought before it arises. Does it work?
Thoughts pop up. I neither create them nor send them away. They just appear. And then they disappear. I have NO idea what I am going to think before I think it. I cannot plan a thought. “Planning” a thought is just another thought (thinking I am going to think about…). Predicting a thought is impossible. It could be anything. If often is completely surprising and a bit disturbing. Suppressing a thought is impossible. The only thing that seems to happen is that less thoughts come up if I think about what thought will come up next.

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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Fri May 15, 2015 10:22 am

Hey Katrijn
Very big difference and MUCH heavier feeling to anything with “my” added to it. Especially concerning the body. The body feels much lighter and less like a responsibility when it is just the leg, the hand, the tension in the back… Even “my” husband feels a bit ridiculous. Husband too. What is a husband?! How can we possibly use such a completely made-up concept?
Yes indeed! Well noticed. Is the word/label water actually water?
Some of the time. Definitely mostly the body (my teeth, my leg, etc.) and also thoughts about things I need to do, remember, plan (activities): I need to buy fruit tomorrow. I should go for a walk later. I need to do this exercise.
What percentage of thoughts was in the future? What percentage was in the past? Roughly!
Thoughts pop up. I neither create them nor send them away. They just appear. And then they disappear. I have NO idea what I am going to think before I think it. I cannot plan a thought. “Planning” a thought is just another thought (thinking I am going to think about…). Predicting a thought is impossible. It could be anything. If often is completely surprising and a bit disturbing. Suppressing a thought is impossible. The only thing that seems to happen is that less thoughts come up if I think about what thought will come up next.
Lovely!

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

OK so now see how much of your day is on autopilot, where thoughts are elsewhere but tasks still get done.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Fri May 15, 2015 12:29 pm

Yes indeed! Well noticed. Is the word/label water actually water?


No, the label is not the thing. Labels are just thought/commentary.
What percentage of thoughts was in the future? What percentage was in the past? Roughly!
Maybe 80% about the near future, 20% about the recent past. Practically nothing about distant past/future.
OK so now see how much of your day is on autopilot, where thoughts are elsewhere but tasks still get done.
This produced excitement when I read it. Intuitively, it immediately seemed clear that it is ALL autopilot. But I am going to sit with this for the rest of today and get back to you later.

Thank you for this Sarah.

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Sarah7
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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Fri May 15, 2015 1:05 pm

Looking forward to it Katrijn!
Have fun! S xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Fri May 15, 2015 4:01 pm

Today I was at home and spent time with your question about how much is on autopilot. So, pretty much all of it is. The body is up and about doing things, and I am in my head telling a story about it a split-second afterwards. It is like a movie is playing on TV, and the sound is not entirely synchronised, so the talking comes a fraction delayed to the action.

I already experienced this directly in the past, when walking home from work. I am often tired and not in the mood for my 45 minute walk home. On one walk I realized very clearly that the walking is just happening by itself, on automatic pilot, and if I did not tell a story about it (this is hard, I am tired, I want to be home), there was really no problem. I would end up at home automatically. Very freeing. And no effort involved. Similarly during the week when “deciding” whether to walk to work or not. I know I have already decided not to walk, and then whether I feel ok or bad about that automatic decision depends on the story I tell myself. Feeling bad means I tell myself I should walk more, it is healthier, I am lazy to take the car, etc.

Today: Driving to the supermarket, completely automatic. Thoughts only turn to what is happening when trying to decide where to park. But I do notice that I decide where to park, and a split second later I “tell myself” where to park. Buying food, preparing food, cooking food -- all automatic. Here my thoughts are on other things (mostly to dos or reviewing scenes from work). All the things the body does are entirely automatic. Getting up, sitting down, stretching, going outside in the sun, coming back indoors. There is no one deciding that stuff and I do not need to think about any of it. The thoughts are either after-the-fact “I just decided this” or completely unrelated musings.

However, planning stuff seems more tricky? Planning my shopping list and meals for the next few days for example. This seems deliberate thinking by a “me”. Is this also on autopilot? Don’t know. Mind seems to get tied up in a knot trying to figure this out. … Ok, but the thoughts are also automatic, no? I don’t choose the thoughts, they just pop up. So even thinking/planning is appearing automatically. I don’t have to “do” thinking/planning, it is more like it “does” me. Ah.

It is ALL automatic, Sarah. But if this is true, there is still a me watching all of it, presiding over it, experiencing the automatic actions and thoughts? And there is still a point-of-view, from behind the eyes, where I seem to reside?

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Re: thank you

Postby Sarah7 » Sat May 16, 2015 6:52 am

Morning Katrijn
Wonderful looking!
However, planning stuff seems more tricky? Planning my shopping list and meals for the next few days for example. This seems deliberate thinking by a “me”. Is this also on autopilot? Don’t know. Mind seems to get tied up in a knot trying to figure this out. … Ok, but the thoughts are also automatic, no? I don’t choose the thoughts, they just pop up. So even thinking/planning is appearing automatically. I don’t have to “do” thinking/planning, it is more like it “does” me. Ah.
Are you clear on this now? Keep looking to verify if not! Watch like a cat watches a mouse hole!
It is ALL automatic, Sarah. But if this is true, there is still a me watching all of it, presiding over it, experiencing the automatic actions and thoughts? And there is still a point-of-view, from behind the eyes, where I seem to reside?
OK – so something sees all this – yes? Can you see what sees? Have a try.
And is that ‘me’ that sees everything ever NOT there?
How do you feel?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Katrijn
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Re: thank you

Postby Katrijn » Sat May 16, 2015 6:51 pm

Are you clear on this now? Keep looking to verify if not! Watch like a cat watches a mouse hole!

Hi Sarah, yes, it is clear. I looked some more at this today. It is all thought and I do not control thought. No way. It is very clear when the planning gets obsessive: I want to stop planning (which is turning into worrying), but cannot. Of course.
OK – so something sees all this – yes? Can you see what sees? Have a try.
And is that ‘me’ that sees everything ever NOT there?
How do you feel?
So I thought I wasn't doing very well with this today... Then suddenly it hit me while watching a football game that the witness-thing is ALSO a thought/feeling. The witness is NOT always there. It is gone when I'm caught up in other thoughts, or reacting to something, and also when sleeping. A lot of the time actually. So the witness also comes and goes.

That opened something up, but it scared me at the same time. Because if I am not even that which is looking/experiencing everything, does that mean I am nothing at all? What does that even mean? It sounds silly when I write it down, but I was really concerned about this, and it made me stuck. I thought until today that "you are awareness" meant I am the witness, even though on another level I knew that wasn't quite right. Not sure whether this is "good enough". What do I do now?


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