Thread for Clint

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Vivien
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Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:41 am

Hi Clint,

I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?


Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:36 pm

hi Vivien :) before i begin with the main questions, i don't see the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page as per the direction in the technical support section.

also sistar, i know that the following verges on analytical and philosophical and it is right on repetative. this will be my first and last post that way.

Insight:
for more than a decade i have seen life as an experiment/video game and as thus employed belief systems as programs whose nature i felt aligned with Universal Mind. for a long time, in any given moment, my question to me was, 'how would i be if i were an immortal and unlimited being?' the problem i came to find, was that i was limiting my self being stuck on the I Am-ness; that i had to exist. now i understand, at least intellectually and i am beginning to get experientially, that purity and peace come from embracing the i-am-notitude or selflessness as a core axiom.

my thesis was that from this clean slate of purified mind i could now install Universal downloads or programs with archetypal characteristics that would comprise a 'god'. until recently and from a perspective of duality, what 'i' had really become was a fairly well trained personality with core flaws. i understand now that if i desire to expand any further, my next steps lie in the direction of no more personality; no more i and so, i find my self here with you beginning the process of completely undoing me. thank you again Vivien :)
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
mainly the expectations i have revolve around eradicating the ever present and constant degrees of resistance no matter how miniscule. with the use of the technique of Vipassana http://www.surabhi.dhamma.org/ i notice that this is exactly what is happening though at a relatively slow pace and i imagine that inquiry in the fashion that LU provides through guides like yourself will quicken that process. in essence, i will become more peaceful and be able to operate in the world from balance no matter the degree of turmoil surrounding me.
How will Life change?
with less resistance comes more ease. one can not run one's life optimally while stuck in a shit show of fractured mind. it's time to wholify this mind and let the imbalanced characteristics called ego/little i and all the benevolent belief systems go in surrender to and in service of the unified Universal Mind and then practice presence and non attachment to even that.
How will you change?
with more ease there is peace of mind. peace of mind is balanced mind is a mind in alignment with Universal Mind and responding to the vicissitudes of life from a balanced mind always produces uplifting results. it is the only way to be part of the solution and i desire to be about that more than contributing to the shit show any longer.
What will be different?
everything will be different, though i imagine in many instances and expressions, subtly. once the common thread in all perception changes from separation to unification on an experiential level life will become a happy and joyful time no matter what shows up on the outside.

sincerely,

me

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:36 am

Dear Clint,

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But seeing what IS cannot be ‘found’ in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
i find my self here with you beginning the process of completely undoing me. thank you again Vivien :)
You, as a separate self, CANNOT be UNDONE. You, as a separate self has NEVER ever existed. There are only THOUGHTS ABOUT a separate self, but a separate self as such (as an entity) has never ever been there, so it is impossible to eradicate it. Only the belief of a solid separate individual can fall away.

You, as a separate entity (or individual)..
  • - cannot be changed (for a better/imporved version)
    - cannot be undone
    - cannot be eradicated
    - cannot die
because you, as a separate individual has never ever been there, there are only THOUGHTS (ideas) ABOUT a separate individual.
mainly the expectations i have revolve around eradicating the ever present and constant degrees of resistance no matter how miniscule. with the use of the technique of Vipassana….
i notice that this is exactly what is happening though at a relatively slow pace and i imagine that inquiry in the fashion that LU provides through guides like yourself will quicken that process. in essence…
This expectation is based on the desire of the separate individual to have a better life by having a better version of it.

seeming resistance = seeming separate self

So a seemingly appearing separate self wants to get rid of itself… :)
i will become more peaceful and be able to operate in the world from balance no matter the degree of turmoil surrounding me.
First, you, as a separate entity won’t become more peaceful because an idea cannot be more peaceful.

Peace or happiness is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.
Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
one can not run one's life optimally while stuck in a shit show of fractured mind.
You, as a separate self DON’T have a live. There is life, but NOTHING owns it.

Life is already is as it is. Only thoughts label it as ‘optimal’ or ‘shit’. Life itself (as anything else) has no inherent attributes or characteristics. It just IS.

“fractured mind” – the mind as such, similarly to the separate self, cannot be found. There are only thoughts about a mind…

Mind is just another word, label for the separate individual.
it's time to wholify this mind and let the imbalanced characteristics called ego/little i and all the benevolent belief systems go in surrender to and in service of the unified Universal Mind and then practice presence and non attachment to even that.
This is what won’t happen. Because there is no such thing as ‘Universal Mind’.
‘Universal Mind’ is just a nice promise, a desire for the separate individual to have a better version of it, to be special, and in a constant peace.

There is neither a ‘mind’ nor a ‘universal mind’.

idea of a ‘mind’ = idea of a separate individual
idea of a ‘universal mind’ = idea of a holy, godlike, superhuman, very-very special version of the separate individual

The separate self doesn’t need fixing… there is nothing that could be fixed…
The separate self cannot be special… there is nothing that could be special…
The separate self cannot be holy or godlike… there is nothing that could be holy or godlike…
everything will be different
life will become a happy and joyful time no matter what shows up on the outside.
Life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

“life become happy and joyful” – see the above comments about life, peace and happiness

What I propose to do is to give you some exercises, and lots of questions, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before thoughts try to make sense of it and begin to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises point to where to look and see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Are you ready for questioning these beliefs?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:49 am

there was no resistance to any of it at all. no sensations outside of balance that i detected. i accept fully completely.

what i did notice was that when you said to be aware of resistance in the form of sensations in the body, a part of this mind said, 'ok, you're on!' in other words, time to behave.

i'm totally ready for questioning the beliefs

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:13 am

Dear Clint,

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Cheers, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:04 am

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.
you know, on some level there is no doubt a part of i that believes the above as it is apparently true but after 20 years i has come to the awareness that before I am, I am not. so, in the interests of exhausting all possibilities i on one level reject and on another, accept.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
the belief system i am running is that i am not this body or this person. i use a body and a person as tokens to play the game of life.
What does the word 'I' point to?
a concept
What makes this body ‘yours’?
nothing except my decision to make it mine
What makes this body ‘you’?
a lack of experiencing anything else as me. i run the belief system that i am not but i have yet to experience it

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:31 am

the belief system i am running is that i am not this body or this person. i use a body and a person as tokens to play the game of life.
From now on, with this inquiry we are targeting to find this ‘I’ that supposedly could run a belief system, use a body, play the game of life, make decisions, etc.

Now we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.


With this investigation we are trying to separate out thought stories from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is supposedly running a belief system?

Where is the ‘I’ located that is supposedly uses the body and the person?

Show me the ‘I’ that is supposedly playing the game of life. I want to see it. Where is it EXACTLY?
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:47 am

Where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is supposedly running a belief system?
there is no solidified 'i'... there are only sensations in this body that i can detect
Where is the ‘I’ located that is supposedly uses the body and the person?
there is no location for 'i' that 'i' is aware of...
Show me the ‘I’ that is supposedly playing the game of life. I want to see it. Where is it EXACTLY?
'i' only exists as a concept... no show only tell

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:05 am

there is no solidified 'i'... there are only sensations in this body that i can detect
Is the sensation ‘you’?
Can the sensation run a belief system?
Can a sensation use a body?
Can a sensation play the game of life?

'i' only exists as a concept...
Can a concept run a belief system?
Can a concept use a body?
Can a concept play the game of life?
If not, what is it EXACTLY that could perform all these things?


Please don’t rush with the answers, and don’t just write the first thoughts that come up, but REALY-REALLY LOOK deeply.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:16 am

i is being as sincere as possible Vivien. i is looking and feeling deeply. is i missing something here?
there is no solidified 'i'... there are only sensations in this body that i can detect

Is the sensation ‘you’?
Can the sensation run a belief system?
Can a sensation use a body?
Can a sensation play the game of life?
the sensation isn't me as it is an indicator of impermanence. the sensation can not run a belief system or use a body or play the game of life
'i' only exists as a concept...

Can a concept run a belief system?
Can a concept use a body?
Can a concept play the game of life?
If not, what is it EXACTLY that could perform all these things?
a concept can not run a belief system or use a body or play the game of life. the only thing that could, it seems to me, is consciousness. is that 'i'?

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:24 am

the only thing that could, it seems to me, is consciousness. is that 'i'?
This is a logical conclusion. We will look at this deeply later, but first let’s have a deeper look on thoughts.

Sit at least 30 minutes (preferably more) and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or there only thoughts about you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:55 am

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or there only thoughts about you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
there are a pool of thoughts of differing quality and the quality of one's mind in any given moment dictates the quality of the thoughts one has access from that pool. altogether they are like a cloud going nowhere. this i has taken credit for stopping a thought in the middle by shifting its attention from the thought to the sensations happening in the body. this i has never tried predicting the next thought. this i has practiced the Buddha's technique of Vipassana and found that when it did practice the choosing of one quality of thought over another, suffering was the result. so now i doesn't do that anymore :)

i does not generate thoughts, it has access to thoughts. the i that thinks is a collection of defilements/fractures/imbalances of mind called the personality. the thinker of thoughts is an archetype called... the Contemplator :) The Contemplator can be visualized i imagines but of the i that created the archetype... it, as you have said, does not exist so no, it can not be found. and yes, the i that thinks is also a thought - the Grand Archetype! indeed and perfect :) thank you for that piece!

it is i's experience that other than stopping a thought by adjusting attention, thoughts can not be controlled and thus the meditation that is the focus of attention on the sensations in form, recognizing their impermanence and developing of equanimity eventually helps to experience selflessness - apparently. this, of course can only be if the Grand Archetype is assumed to be real, which it ain't.

there is no i at all so no, there is no i to own anything. the thoughts just are and belong to no one. they are used by i's that think they know to share ideas with other i's who think they know.

i'm not clear about this question:
Do you think thoughts or there only thoughts about you?
it is this i's experience that it is possible to prevent the clinging to a thought and to prevent access to the pool of thoughts by turning the dial of attention from think to the observation of sensations in form. if this practice is taken to its final goal then there is no separate i to experience selflessness or non-existence but the i is apparently changed forever afterward.

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:00 am

Dear Clint,

I’d like to ask you that please don’t make bulk quoting with bulk replies, this makes quite difficult to follow which answer belongs to which question. So please quote only one question at a time, write a reply, then quote another one. One quote, one reply.

Most of your answers didn’t come from looking, but you just wrote down the first thoughts that appeared. When I ask these questions, I’m never interested in what thoughts say. I’m only interested in your actual immediate experience prior to thoughts.

The illusion of me is ‘created’ by thinking. The illusion is cannot be seen through with the same thinking that creates it in the first place!

These questions are not for answering them intellectually. These questions are for pointing you out of the realm of thoughts. These questions are to shift the focus of attention from the ‘content’ of thoughts to the actual experiencing (what is prior to thoughts).

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look:
  • (1) Thought arise: “Is there somewhere a seer?”
    (2) Pure looking, experiencing what is here in the moment (in the gap between two thoughts)
    (3) Thought arise describing what has been seen: “There are only images”
So, in the gap between two thoughts, there is looking. Looking happens in the gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the describing thought come in.

In the next 24 hours in the all waking hours try to observe the gaps between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done but noticing that thinking is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Please report back how it went.

So now, let’s go through all the questions about thoughts again. I cut back on the number of questions I ask at a time.

So here are the questions again, and LOOK for the answers in the similar way I showed you above. And please, one quote, one reply.

Take lots of time with the questions and REALLY look.

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?


Cheers, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:32 am

Understood thank you. I'll get back to you soon

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:57 am

Please report back how it went.
all day with your instructions Vivien :) and so much came to light. i is a thought and awareness just is. between thoughts there is only sensation observed. who is it that observes; that sees? is that i? who is it that observes the observer?
Where thoughts come from?
it is not known
Where are they going?
not known
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
i don't know
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
i doesn't know
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
i has no answer


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