Thread for 'JeremyM'

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Xain
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Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:17 pm

Here is your original post, Jeremy:

Hello, my name is Jeremy.

I will speak from my egoic point of view. Please forgive my verbosity, but the sticky post said to say a bit about myself in order to find the most suitable guide:

I am a hippy from San Antonio, Texas who loves to play music and be around my close group of friends. I've had a lot of experience with psychedelics, however, not in overwhelming doses. I've experienced what might be considered ego-death, or moments of completely letting go of my fears and associations of "who am I," or "if I let go will I be eternally damned?" Letting go led to complete bliss and a joyful chuckle at the simplicity of it all. But, I've also had many many bad experiences since then, even though I know it is only my ego holding me back in fear.

My religious upbringing in Christianity has instilled doubt and fear in my mind, making me believe the universe is not my home, but merely a scale on the devil's back, and that if I am completely submersed in it, I will become one with the devil. My logic sees the bible and Christian beliefs as spiritual metaphors, and like I said, I've seen past the fears and entered bliss once before, but I can't seem to do this sober. I place a lot of value on psychedelics for their ability to show a person his own true self, however I no longer make the mistake of believing they will lead me to a permanent fix, but rather I view them as spiritual tools. For this reason, I have discontinued my use with psychedelics for the time being.

During my sober life, I am very easy going, non-anxious, introverted, and slow to anger or any other negative emotions. I do have sort of a judgement on others, but I don't hold it against them because I know they have not seen their own identities stripped of labels. Politics do get to me as I feel the status quo is focused almost entirely away from spirituality. I meditate occasionally, and sometimes go through bouts of intense spiritual pursuit. I have a desire to make incredible music, but my doubts, fears, and slothfulness prevent me from pursing these things. Perhaps this desire is really just a desire to feel complete; I'm not entirely sure.

I feel like there is something missing, like it's right on the tip of my tongue, but I'm not quite there yet. I know that there is no "there," I'm just using an expression. I appreciate everyone here, and I love and support what the guides of this forum are doing for the uninitiated. Thank you for baring through my monologue!

Jeremy

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:19 pm

Hi Jeremy

Welcome to LU and the forum.
Your post resonated with me a lot - I am also a musician, and get 'frustrated' with the apparent inability to be free and creative (and lack desire to complete things).
I will speak from my egoic point of view.
Just as a pointer, always use normal language here - No need to speak or write differently - I will understand what you mean.

It is good to see that you have realised that your religious upbringing may have brought it's own problems, along with everything else. I agree with you that the Bible, and indeed most religious books and scripts as spiritual pointers and metaphors. Unfortunately, they aren't seen that way by most - They are taken 'literally'.

I have used Magic Mushrooms myself - Again, I am pleased that you are refraining from their use for the time being.
The problem would be that you might be looking for an experience or a 'permanent state' similar to ones that you have already had. This guidance isn't for this.
I feel like there is something missing, like it's right on the tip of my tongue, but I'm not quite there yet.
I think I know what you mean - Perhaps it is that you have a solid mental understanding of something, but it hasn't been completely realised on a deep level?

What exactly are you looking for in guidance here with me?
What goal would you like to reach?
Do you have any expectations?
Do you have any major worries or fears about the process?

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:36 am

Hey Xain,

Nice to meet you. Thank you for guiding me! I'm glad you resonated well with my post; the reason I wrote so much in my initial post was to find the most appropriate guide for my situation. Let's begin:

I think I know what you mean - Perhaps it is that you have a solid mental understanding of something, but it hasn't been completely realised on a deep level?
Yes. I'll use psychedelics as an example again since they have brought me the most profound changes in my understanding. Sometimes while having an experience, one will have epiphanies, or sudden profound realizations. But these realizations aren't anything one didn't know before, it's just that one now has an awareness, or complete understanding of the ideas. There's a difference between knowing and understanding.

What exactly are you looking for in guidance here with me?
I'm not sure exactly. Some kind of end-search. Just to know that I know whatever it is I need to know, or if it is even possible to know. Ultimately, I think this would lead to peace, just knowing that there's nothing else to know, although I do know that enlightenment may very well be an endless ladder. I read a lot of the Gateless Gatecrashers and saw that a few people had diligently practiced meditation exercises for years, only to find what they were searching for after only a few posts with a guide. And the whole game of it all seems to be that I don't know what I'm looking for, only that I feel there is something missing.

What goal would you like to reach?
To simply walk through the gate and understand that I have gone through it.

Do you have any expectations?
I'm not really sure what to expect.

Do you have any major worries or fears about the process?
No worries or fears. My biggest fear of all is eternal torment, but this is not of much concern during regular life because I am able to work at my own pace vs. being thrown into the pool head first as psychedelics tend to do.

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:56 pm

Hi again Jeremy

Your description of 'realisation' is great - Yes - It is simply to realise something that has always been the case - but it is overlooked - overlooked by thinking and assumptions.

To put it in a nutshell, I would try to guide you to realise that 'I', the separate self or person that is believed to be 'you', is nothing more than an idea - A repeated thought that is automatically believed in without question.
That there never was a separate 'Jeremy', nor ever has been a separate 'Jeremy' . . . other than just an idea - A thought.
Now any further expectations should be put to one side - This (as detailed in the paragraph above) is the only goal we are aiming for right now.
It MAY result in peace. But only as a by-product (for example, it will be realised that there is no separate person here that needs to worry about anything anyway!). Strong expectations of bliss or of a specific permanent experience will hamper this investigation, or at worst, completely prevent it.
We are not looking for an experience - We are examining who or what is having it!

I will ask you to try to put all ideas about non-duality, awakening and such like to one side for our investigation, and only speak from a place of what you really and truly believe. Not what you think I want to hear, and not what you think the right answer might be (logically) - Instead, the answer that you honestly believe is right.

Your religious conditioning regarding 'eternal torment' is something we can look into if it is troubling you, but to be frank, this investigation here has nothing at all to do with this kind of thing.
It is very simply examining what is happening right now. Simple as that. No devils. No shamans. No witch-doctors. :-)

How does that sound?
Do you have any particular further questions at this point?

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:42 am

Hey Xain,

Sounds good to me. I understand that this realization may or may not result in peace, which is why I didn't even want to mention it as the end goal. I do believe that over time, the realization will bring peace about, but I will try not to imagine this while working with you. I'll be as honest with you as I am with myself throughout the process.

I'm not too concerned about my fear of eternal torment because I know this is just something that's been built into me. I'll tell you something interesting: I actually remember my very first memory. I suddenly just came into existence, looking out through a 3 and 1/2 years old's body. I saw my mother, and I knew she was very very familiar, but I had to ask her who she was. I didn't even know my own name. I spent the next few weeks, maybe months, worrying that I had slipped into a coma in another life and was just dreaming all of this. I thought that every time I peed/pooped I was actually doing that in a hospital somewhere. I was worried that if I died there, I might get stuck here. I wondered who was having to look after me.

Anyway, I began questioning my mother why I was here. I was asking questions that even she had never thought about, and it led her to search for answers within her own faith through bible studies. I never truly believed in anything she taught me from the church, but I was so young that it left an imprint. It helped build the fundamental nature of my personality, always philosophizing and wondering, and always questioning what's said to be true. The reason I bring it up is not that the religious upbringing is a problem, but that it is the last thing I let go of before witnessing the bliss. These are some of the first things that built up my personality, and some of the last things I had to let go of on my psychedelic journey. During that psychedelic experience, I suddenly remembered the moment I seemingly came into my body for the first time, and I had the classic realization that I really didn't know anything at all. I mean sure, 2+2=4, but what is even real? I was still that child who was thrown into a strange and mysterious world, only I had learned a few things about how things worked here and picked up a few more skills.

I asked myself, who am I? But I couldn't locate me. There was no who, I just was. Sure, I had a bunch of memories that had developed into this humerous, easy going, music geek character, but I was not my memories, and I was not the character. I was not even my body or visions or sounds or anything else. What the hell was I? Maybe this is where I experienced no-self but was not able to understand because I never located the witness, the "true" Jeremy. The Jeremy without name. Maybe I was just on the very threshold of understanding no-self, but I couldn't quite grasp it. Maybe there is nothing to grasp. Sorry if I sound like I'm speculating, but this is really where I've arrived.

Does this sound similar to the state of no-self?

-Jeremy

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:09 pm

Hi Jeremy

I read what you had written but it contains lots of assumptions. This might be because you are limited to the use of words to explain something difficult. I'll pull out some of these assumptions - Not to analyse at this point, but simply for your own interest.
I'm not too concerned about my fear of eternal torment because I know this is just something that's been built into me.
The assumptions here that there is a separate 'you' that has fears, and also that there is a separate 'you' that has fears 'built into them'.
I was not even my body
The assumption being that this body is 'mine' or 'me'.
Maybe this is where I experienced no-self
The assumption being that there is a 'you' than can or has experienced things (and may experience something in the future).
Maybe I was just on the very threshold of understanding no-self
The assumption being that there is a 'you' that understands things, and might get some understanding in the future.
This guidance is not on the level of 'understanding'.
Does this sound similar to the state of no-self?
'No-self' is not a 'state - It is a realisation. And upon realising it, it would also be realised that no separate self, person, or 'I' realised it. Pretty far out huh?
The guidance here is not to attain a 'state'.

Forgive me if I was being over picky with what you had written, and you didn't quite mean some of the descriptions to be taken literally. I merely wished you to be open to how deep this could go. :-)

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist is both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Let me know any further questions or concerns you have, and we will get under-way :-)

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:45 pm

I haven't heard from you for a while now.
Do you still wish to continue?

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:18 pm

So, so sorry to leave you hanging Xain! I did not mean to waste your time or concern you. I've been staying at a computer-less friend's house since the last time I wrote to you. I can agree to all of your guidelines and will be able to post daily again.

I am ready to continue. The way you are describing 'no-self' is very interesting to me. It's hard to wrap my mind around.

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:12 pm

Right - Ok.
Well first of all, we need to establish what you believe you are.
In other words, if you said 'I', what does 'I' (or 'me') point to - What does it refer to?

Please try to respond very simply without referring to any 'spiritual' or religious ideas or what you may have heard or read. I want you to tell me what you honestly believe right now.

For example, do you believe you are a person - JeremyM?
This name refers to a body, and the body is 'you'.
'You' are experiencing life right now - Seeing, hearing etc
'You' have a mind and thoughts.
Right now 'you' are sat or laid down, looking at a computer screen (or similar device) and reading word off it.
You control your body - You have a life and some control over it.

Those are some simple ideas but feel free to reject them if they don't work for you.
Tell me your own opinion. What do you think?

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:01 pm

If you said 'I', what does 'I' (or 'me') point to - What does it refer to?
It's not something I can quite put my finger on. I know logically that "Jeremy" is just a compilation of memories and experiences that have occurred over time perfectly, accord to the laws of nature. It feels like I am in control of my body, but I know that this is really just an illusion of galactic proportion.

Do you believe you are a person - JeremyM?
I don't believe I am my body, only that it holds me.

'You' are experiencing life right now - Seeing, hearing etc
Even knowing that Jeremy is just memories, I still feel like I am experiencing life. I'd say that I believe I am the witness to all of these senses that the body provides. However, I am not the senses themselves. It seems that either I am all of the sensations, thoughts, emotions, body, and everything around me, or I am nothing at all.

'You' have a mind and thoughts.
I wouldn't say that I own these things, but they seem pretty real to me.

You control your body - You have a life and some control over it.
I believe the control is an illusion, but only logically. I don't experience life without feeling I am in control.

Tell me your own opinion. What do you think?
It's impossible for me to pinpoint what I think I am, like I mentioned in a previous post. I am not my memories, body, or thoughts, yet there seems to be something experiencing all of this.

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:14 pm

I know logically that "Jeremy" is just a compilation of memories and experiences that have occurred over time perfectly
Are the memories 'yours' - Are they about 'you'?
. . . yet there seems to be something experiencing all of this.
Going back to the experiences you mentioned previously, did the experiences happen to 'you'?
Perhaps the 'you' they happened to / were experienced by is the body?
Again, try to respond what from what you honestly believe.
I don't believe I am my body, only that it holds me.
Interesting.
Although you did say 'my body' which would imply it was 'yours'.
Can you determine why this is?
I mean, why do you believe the body 'holds' you or that the body is 'yours'.
Is it because it appears to be the centre of experience - The body hears, sees etc?

Why do you say 'holds me'? Do you mean in a reference to a spirit or soul? That the body is a vessel or container?
What is the 'you' that the body holds.
I still feel like I am experiencing life. I'd say that I believe I am the witness to all of these senses that the body provides.
That's cool. We'll examine this together.
It feels like I am in control of my body, but I know that this is really just an illusion of galactic proportion.
We'll just have a look at these other things together, then examine 'control' directly.

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:18 am

Are the memories 'yours' - Are they about 'you'?
No, my memories are not me. They are only something that happens, and the compilation of the dreams forms the personality that is "Jeremy."

Going back to the experiences you mentioned previously, did the experiences happen to 'you'?
Perhaps the 'you' they happened to / were experienced by is the body?

Good point, they do happen to the body, which is not me, however I do feel like the experiences happen to me, but at the same time I do not know what I am.

Although you did say 'my body' which would imply it was 'yours'.
Can you determine why this is?
I mean, why do you believe the body 'holds' you or that the body is 'yours'.
Is it because it appears to be the centre of experience - The body hears, sees etc?

I say it is my body, but I do not own it. I say it is my body because this is the most reasonable language in my mind that points to what I'm trying to say. The body does appear to be the centre of experience, yes.

Why do you say 'holds me'? Do you mean in a reference to a spirit or soul? That the body is a vessel or container?
What is the 'you' that the body holds.

I don't know. I've come to believe that this body holds my essence, or that my essence is everything, which includes this body and all of its experiences. I really cannot say that there is anything that the body holds because I've never been able to put a finger on it, as I mentioned earlier. There very well may be no 'me' that is held. Logically, there is no me that is held, only the illusion of a soul, separate from the experience, but it feels so real that I exist.

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:02 pm

Good point, they do happen to the body, which is not me, however I do feel like the experiences happen to me, but at the same time I do not know what I am.

..... The body does appear to be the centre of experience, yes.
That's cool - We will examine 'the body and is it 'me' first of all.
Generally it is believed that 'I' am this body, and it appears to be what 'experiences' life.
. . . .but it feels so real that I exist.
Well let's leave out 'what exists' and 'what doesn't exist' for the moment, and just simply see what we can find.

For the following inquiry, I want you to try and compare what answers you might be getting from thinking about the question, and what answer you are getting immediately from the experience here and now.
Ideally, always answer from what you find in the experience if you can.

Let's examine all the senses, since we assume 'the body' performs them or is the centre of experience in some way.

Let's examine 'SEEING'.
Right now, a computer screen (or similar) is being viewed - Words and being read off the screen and made sense of (into intelligible language / words and speech).

Ok, now normally we say 'I see' and 'I read'. We assume there is an 'I' here doing it.
So let's actually LOOK into experience.

Right here and now, can you tell what is seeing the screen?
Can you find what is reading these words off the screen? What is doing that?

If you come up with an answer, try to see if it is 'just an idea' about it, or it is something that is actually appearing / being witnessed.
What do you find?

Xain ♥

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby JeremyM » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:50 am

I don't know what's doing it. It's just happening. I understand that eyes pick up visual cues and my language cortex handles the understanding of words, but there isn't anyone doing it. I cannot locate the witness. It's all happening automatically.

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Re: Thread for 'JeremyM'

Postby Xain » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:47 pm

I understand that eyes pick up visual cues and my language cortex handles the understanding of words, but there isn't anyone doing it.
Are 'eyes picking up visual cues' something you find in the experience?
Or is this more of 'an idea' about it?
Certainly the experience of 'seeing' may change - But is there something 'doing it'?

'Language cortex (not heard of that one before) understanding the words'
Is that something you find in the experience of reading.
Or is this more of 'an idea' about it?

You can extend this investigation to hearing.
Sit quietly for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room or outside.

Now . . . what is doing that?
What is hearing the sounds? Is it something that can be found in the experience - An 'I'?
Or is there just 'hearing'?

Are there two parts to the experience - The sounds being one, and the hearer 'I' being the other.
Or just 'hearing' alone?

Xain ♥


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