Ready Smudge

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Louis
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Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:00 pm

Hi Smudge,

All set up and looking forward to starting!

Thanks,

Louis


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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:34 pm

Hey Louis,

Just a few formalities before we start, please read thoroughly and let me know if you agree..

LU says: Enter into this process if you are ready and willing to question all your beliefs and assumptions about awakening, if you are ready to face your fears, and if you prefer truth to comfortable lies. Do not enter if your goal is to fix the parts of your life that you think are broken, to embark on a self-improvement project, or to gain some kind of spiritual certification. On this basis are you ready?

can we both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise?

I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. OK with that?

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. That OK with you?

Also to quote, just highlight what you want to quote and the click "Quote" above, when it posts it will have quoted, its a helpful way to communicate easily. Also its a good idea to tick the box below saying notify me when a reply is posted and tapatalk is a good ap for phones.

So after agreeing to the above...please begin by listing all of your hopes and expectations of what will come out of this process? lets hear it all, expectations can be a big block later so lets expose them all now..

Look forward to exploring with you,

Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:25 am

Yes, I agree and am willing to start the process on the basis you give. I will do my best to post at least once daily, and will let you know if anything is going to get in the way of that. Very pleased to work as close to direct experience as I can.

Thanks for technical suggestions, all helpful.

Hopes and expectations:

As I said in my email, I don't have many expectations - I've not read any of the LU material, and no other forum entries, so have no preconceptions of what outcomes may be. I'm quite excited to allow it to unfold without expectations, though I suppose I will now and then wonder if I'm 'getting it right' since I've not witnessed anybody else's process.

I have been working around the self and the nature of mind in various ways, meditative and therapeutic, for a long time. I'm hoping to make some progress in that area. I would appreciate unwinding some of the tight control thoughts continue to have on my being in the world, on moods, expectations, relationships. And I would be very grateful to unwind some of the tightness of ego-grasping/self-ing and enter into what lies beyond that in terms of ease, release, relaxation.

I'll mention that I dreamed last night I was called out to a kind of 'initiation-pod' in snowy woods. It was glass and steel on the outside, but inside all wooden and candle- and fire-lit, hung with prayer flags and banners of coloured cloth. The initiation was hard - I remember no details except for feeling I was being pushed even deeper into my embodied experience - and at the end I was exhausted and happy.

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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:37 pm

Sorry for the late reply, I have been feeding demons in Manchester..
I'm quite excited to allow it to unfold without expectations
Excellent!

Your dream sounds great, I think you are ripe for this :-)

Before we dive in & it's vital all answers need to come from Direct experience (DE) only.. to ensure it's clear what this is, please do this:
Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, think how it will taste. Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, and actually experiencing from this exercise? please answer fully.
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:43 pm

Things I note in different stages of meeting a sultana:

Looking: wrinkled, dull sheen, dry, flattened
Thinking: (expectation of) sweet, (expectation of) texture of chewing, (expectation of) mix of dry and oily, knowledge of concentrated sugars
In mouth: at first neither pleasant nor unpleasant papery texture, tasteless, dry, then a release of softness and shot of pure sweetness on the tongue; that tender centre quite quickly dissolves away and the dry skin remains, feeling desiccated, almost a bit dusty; a bit of a chore to finish chewing away the remain substance...

With thought I am able to enter partway into the experience, but it's as if my ideas sit atop the beingness of the experience. The actual eating is a kind of lowering down from ideas into the embodied experience, which is momentary and so much richer than my thought of it. I'm struck by a thought that thinking labels and eternalises experience, gives a box into which I place what actually happens - and I begin to see that being in a box always constricts the feeling of what happens.

I'm wondering if I am able to go further into 'sweetness'? Is that a basic experience of tongue-meets-world or is there an idea even in that momentary experience? Perhaps the further-down experience is just 'pleasant' - maybe the separation of pleasant/unpleasant/neutral really is as basic as we can get...

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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:14 pm

papery texture, tasteless, dry, then a release of softness and shot of pure sweetness on the tongue; that tender centre quite quickly dissolves away and the dry skin remains, feeling desiccated, almost a bit dusty...
Great. Yes this sounds like DE

But then you say: "With thought I am able to enter partway into the experience"
Check again, can thought do anything other than describe what's already happening? Have another sultana and really see the difference between thought and DE.

And then you say: "I'm wondering if I am able to go further into sweetness"
What does this mean? What is this I that can go. Anywhere? DE only.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:44 pm

Yes, thought only describes what happens (or what I expect to happen or remember happening previously). I meant by saying 'enter partway' only that it is a step away from DE, not the real, lived experience. But I see your point - thought is a different order of experience, it doesn't even go partway.

And about going deeper into sweetness, the question is whether 'sweetness' itself is a thought and a label, and so a step back from DE? Could there be a less mediated, more direct experience of sweet?

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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:06 pm

Ok. Do it now. Get a Sultana. Think about the sweetness. Write these thoughts. THEN eat it and focus on DE of sweet, thoughts will happen but that's not the focus in the second part. Describe best you can this DE. Best we are thorough now on the difference between the finger and the moon, otherwise it will get in the way later.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:30 pm

Thoughts of sweetness - what I know of experiencing sweet: small explosion of taste sensation on the tongue, specific tongue areas activated, synapses connecting, identifying experience, naming it. DE is only 'yum!': being in sweetness, momentarily given over to the experience.

The finger and moon analogy is helpful to me, thanks.


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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:49 pm

So when the word "I" is used (in your previous posts), what is meant from DE please describe what is found as fully as possible.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:08 pm

Is it the ground of experience, the frame within which experiencing happens? There is a thought that there is something continuous, perceiving, but I sense that is illusory, another idea about being and experience. Perhaps 'I' is a window opened on DE, easily thought of as a thing or a being or a point of view, when there is only flowingness of DE, moment to moment.

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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:18 pm

Look over what has just been written and tell me if that's DE or thoughts about DE. X


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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:40 pm

That's thoughts about! When I really enter into DE - here, parked in the car in the rain, there is only the sound of pattering rain, wind blowing, cold air, cars passing. But even those descriptions are labels, aren't they? There is only hearing, sensing, movement of mind. Just that, just now.

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smudge
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby smudge » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:45 pm

When I really enter into DE -.
Just as the word 'car' points to a big metal thing, What does the word "I" point to in DE here?


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Louis
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Re: Ready Smudge

Postby Louis » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:39 pm

Nothing! Something like a placeholder, the site of experiencing.


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