Any guide wants to help?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:32 pm

Hello my name is Simone. I'm in my twenties, male. I've had glimpses of reality but they lasted a few hours each. Nevertheless they belong to the past. Now the illusion of a separate self is present and believed most of the time.

I think I'm stuck in the illusion of the "Doer", in the illusion of a self who has control over thoughts, actions etc.

I would like to be guided into seeing clearly that there is no controller and that everything is just happening by itself. I would like to take a clear, unquestionable, final look that would settle all doubts about it.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you.
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:04 am

Hi Simone,

If you want I can be your guide.
With your name Simone I would presume it is female. For male that must be very rare?
I think I'm stuck in the illusion of the "Doer", in the illusion of a self who has control over thoughts, actions etc.
To start with: is thinking you are stuck the same as being stuck?

Regards, Petrus

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:37 am

Hi Simone,
If you want I can be your guide.
With your name Simone I would presume it is female. For male that must be very rare?
Thank you so much Petrus. You just ask the right questions and I'll do the rest. Anyway I'm from Italy. Here Simone is for guys and Simona is for girls.

Thank you again for helping me.
To start with: is thinking you are stuck the same as being stuck?
No. No they're not. Thinking I am stuck is just a very convincing thought. It might not have anything to do with what is real.

I think I'm stuck but I might be wrong. Can I absolutely know for sure that I'm stuck? No, of course.

Maybe I'm not stuck. I don't really know. It might just be another assumption: "I'm stuck."

So no, they're not the same things. Who knows whether I'm stuck or not?


Thank you Petrus. Talk to you soon.
Simone

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:41 am

Hi Simone,

Aha from Italy! I am Dutch, so we will write in English.
I will be happy to be your guide.

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it.

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change? How will you change? What will be different?
Please answer in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Warm regards Petrus

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:45 am

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
I'll try to post as much as I can. I'll be honest and write all (maybe wrong) assumptions that arise.

I'll forget about all other teachings. There's just you, me, and the english language from now on!
"Self" to me is nothing but a word I read on some book. To me it feels more like "I", "me", "myself". By that I mean that the second group of terms feels more real. Nevertheless we can use the word "self" as well.

I've read the disclaimer and agree to all above.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change? How will you change? What will be different?
Please answer in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.
My expectations for Liberation are:
-the end of suffering
-more aliveness and openness and flow in any situation
-the end of fear
-life will be filled with love

I don't expect any practical changes in my life. I will get sick one day and die. I expect though that it won't be a problem once that it is seen that the "I" that dies isn't real.

Should I forget about my expectations?

I'm ready Petrus! Let's have some fun!

Simone
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:36 am

What it "feels like" in this moment:

I am the one who's writing these words.
I am the one who's thinking about these words.
I am the one who's watching through these eyes.
I am experiencing the world around me.
I move my arms and body. I decide what to do next. I choose what to do/think.
I've been here for a while and will be around for a little more.
I did things in the past, I will do more things in the future.
I'm aware of the world.

I felt the need to write down "my experience". It seems that there's a lot of work to do ahahah.

Ignore this post if you want. We can continue from where we left.

Thank you. TTYS
Simone
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:53 am

Hi Simone,
I'm ready Petrus! Let's have some fun!
Yes, lets have some fun, haha...
Should I forget about my expectations?
Can you? Is there an I that can forget?

A good start will be to see the expectations for what they are:
-the end of suffering
-more aliveness and openness and flow in any situation
-the end of fear
-life will be filled with love
In short: You want to keep the good things and avoid the bad things.
This probably will not happen the way you want it exeactly. Life will just go on.
But if there is no I to judge, there will be no problem.
I will get sick one day and die.
Are you sure about that?
This I you talk about here is referring to what?

Very good to post what it feels like now, I just was going to ask you!
After the list you wrote (al beginning with I) I like to start with some questions about thought.
Try to answer them from your experience right at this moment, so not from what you read or heard somewhere.
Here they are:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Same about the thought 'I'?


Warm regards, Petrus

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:13 pm

Thank you for the quick reply.
Let's start.
I will get sick one day and die.
Are you sure about that?
This I you talk about here is referring to what?
I mean I don't expect any extraordinary power after this process. Flesh will still die. That's what I meant.
The "me" I'm referring to seems to be the entity that inhabits this body and controls it, and from which it perceives the outside world. It's some kind of line that keeps connected all psychological and physical changes that occur in the body and mind. It's the only thing that seems to always be there.

Personality changes, situations change, but the "I-observer-doer" is always there. Here I'm just reporting how things are seen at a first look.
After the list you wrote (al beginning with I) I like to start with some questions about thought.
Try to answer them from your experience right at this moment, so not from what you read or heard somewhere.
Here they are:
Where do thoughts come from?
They pop up. They appear from nowhere. There's no "introduction" to the thought.
Where are they going?
They disappear. When they do they're forgotten.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
There's a noise of thoughts always moving. I can't even recognize most of them. They're just "half thoughts" moving silently. Bigger thoughts I can keep them a little longer but after a while other thoughts replace the previous one.
I don't seem to have much control.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Let's see. Thoughts pop up from nowhere. There cannot be found any "process of generation" of the thought. There's no preparation for the thought. It goes from 0 to 1 without any warning. Thoughts simply appear suddenly.
There's some fear right now. The "I" cannot be found. It cannot be located anywhere and it's not perceived in any way. Thoughts are random. They appear randomly and disappear randomly. There's no control.
Thoughts are not controlled.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
There is just the thought. There is just the action. There is no preparation for the new thought. There is no chef cooking the the thought.
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
"I am thinking this thought" could be just like "Mickey mouse is riding the unicorn." They might be on the same level. Yet I can picture Mickey but I cannot picture this "I-thing" that's claiming these words ahahah.
Yes it could definitely be another thought. A much more abstract one. I can see it now as just a thought.
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
There is no control. Thoughts pop up randomly. Before when I first inquired on this there was a fear-mechanism which kind of prevented me from looking 100% clearly.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
I don't like painful thoughts yet they happen. Ergo there's no control.
Can you choose what to think?
Thoughts pop up for no reason. There's no choosing.
Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Thoughts happen by themselves. That's pretty clear now. The thoughts seem to be linked to this abstract entity called "I". I see that this "I" is contained in the thoughts themselves. It is not outside of the thinking.
It might be a label automatically attached to most thoughts.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It doesn't send a warning before it appears. I don't know which thought will pop up until it does. I cannot prevent a thought from appearing.
Same about the thought 'I'?
Yes, the same goes with the thought "I". It's attached to anything I say (see? lol). It's like a label that goes together with most thoughts ahahah.

--------------------------------------------
Something is clearing up.

P.S. While answering the question ""Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?"" there was some fear. That kind of blocked the seeing. I will try again to inquire into this no-control thing until it is seen 100%. The seeing wasn't complete. I can try again later or we can go on with more questions. Show me the way!:) Thank you
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:26 pm

Hi Simone,
Not enough time to really answer now.
So you have to wait until tomorrow!

Warm regards, Petrus.

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:51 pm

It's ok Petrus! This way I will have time to go deeper on those questions you already asked me.

Take all the time you need.
Thank you
Simone
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:39 am

Hi Simone,

You are doing great! Looks like a rocket launching.
There's some fear right now. The "I" cannot be found.
Fear is a natural thing, a protector. Maybe the fear you are feeling is a natural response to the unknown?
If the fear comes in again, take a look at it. Welcome it as a friend and ask it what it is here for.
Maybe it has a story to tell you?
On the other hand: there is nothing to fear. We are only trying to see what already is.
The "me" I'm referring to seems to be the entity that inhabits this body and controls it
Where in this body you locate this me?
but the "I-observer-doer" is always there.
Can you really perceive a I-observer-doer?
Or is that an image (so a thought) of how it has to be?
Bigger thoughts I can keep them a little longer
Is that really so?
I don't seem to have much control.
Indeed. None. Zero.
Relax, everything already is out of control, haha.
I see that this "I" is contained in the thoughts themselves. It is not outside of the thinking.
That is so very true.
Something is clearing up.
I can sense it here.

Warm regards, Petrus.

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:32 pm

Good morning Petrus!
Fear is a natural thing, a protector. Maybe the fear you are feeling is a natural response to the unknown?
If the fear comes in again, take a look at it. Welcome it as a friend and ask it what it is here for.
Maybe it has a story to tell you?
On the other hand: there is nothing to fear. We are only trying to see what already is.
The fear seems to be gone for now. Maybe it was caused by a partial realization of not having control.
Right now the "I" is in most of the thoughts and actions. Though there is the acceptance of not having control.
It's all good even though the movement of thought is spontaneous and there's no control. There's a
growing realization and a growing acceptance of this fact.

The fear was irrational since we're not "touching" anything but just observing so nothing could possibly be hurt. If it should ever
happen I'll try to see it as a friend and inquire on why it is here and what it is protecting.
Where in this body you locate this me?
The 'me' right now feels like the whole body. It's my hands, my face, my eyes, my chest, my breathing, all bodily sensations. It seems to be located behind the eyes as well as the whole body.
Can you really perceive a I-observer-doer?
Or is that an image (so a thought) of how it has to be?
I can perceive surroundings, a body (my body), sounds etc and there is the assumption that all sensations go to this "sensation-center" which is the I. The I is at the center of experiencing.
The I cannot be perceived as an object. It's more of a location towards which all experiencing goes. The I is aware of the thinking (the thinking is now starting to be seen as automatic and not controlled).

Can I absolutely know that this 'I-location-observer' is here? No. Yet it's a sticky belief. I will look closely and tell you what I see. Will post more later I think.
Indeed. None. Zero.
Relax, everything already is out of control, haha.
Yeah it's so relaxing when this is seen! I(if there is such thing) am not responbile for anything! That's so cool! There is no effort.
This goes on and off: controller,suffering - flow - controller,suffering - flow - controller,suffering - etc....
Clarity cannot be sensed yet either, there's still some confusion. The only thing that is felt in a relatively strong way is "being ok with having no control". I'm accepting this thing, even though
sometimes the illusion of the controller takes place again. All this is experienced in a very subtle way of course.


I want to inquire more on the perception of:
- 'I' as the center of experiencing
- 'I' as the bodily sensations, 'I' as the voice, 'I' as the face, 'I' as the whole body

I will write more tonight I think.

Thank you Petrus. Thank you a lot.
Simone
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:43 pm

Hi Simone,

This afternoon I already posted a couple of questions for you.
But I see somehow they are not on the server.

So I post them again:

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?

Do you have control over this body?
Does the body see, hear, feel etc?
Or is there seeing, hearing, feeling?

Are you a body with a mind?
A mind in a body?
Are you this body?


Tomorrow more...
Warm regards, Petrus

User avatar
Allisone
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Allisone » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:16 pm

Hey Petrus good evening

I did some inquiry and noticed that mostly I am an abstract entity and the thinking is my world.
I exist in the thoughts. The thoughts talk about me. About how I had to deal with something or how I managed to solve something etc. When the thoughts stop, I am forgotten, completely.
And I don't control thoughts. Thoughts bring me life, they paint me and tell stories about me.
In the inner dialogue, I am the king! All stories are about me! LOL

This made me realize that I AM PERCEIVED, therefore I'm just another object in perception. I'm not
the perceiver!

And I exist only in the thought stories. Yet, there is the sensation that from the 'story-world' I can actually control the body and actions.

I will inquire with the new questions you wrote. Thanks a lot. I will post tomorrow evening I suppose.
Catch what isn't truth cause the truth is not catchable

User avatar
Petrus
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:58 am

Re: Any guide wants to help?

Postby Petrus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:44 pm

Hi Simone,
This made me realize that I AM PERCEIVED, therefore I'm just another object in perception. I'm not
the perceiver!
Actually that is the core issue to realize!!
In other words it means: there is no real you. There is life, there is existence, but no separate you.
Can you see that is true?
And I exist only in the thought stories. Yet, there is the sensation that from the 'story-world' I can actually control the body and actions.
Ofcourse there is, it is the character on the screen that says he is the boss.
But it is what you say: a sensation.
And there are sensations in all flavours and colours.

Looking forward to your answers again. Take your time.

Warm regards, Petrus


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 0 guests