Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

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purplesnail
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Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:08 am

Hi,
I am looking for a guide to assist me in seeing through the illusion of self. I am quite attached to this "I" and would very much appreciate some help peeling away years (lifetimes?) of attachments. In fact, I am already noticing that I feel uncomfortable writing this email because it will appear in a "public" forum. My "I" wants to protect itself and I haven't even started this process.

I also notice that I am requesting a Triratna OM to guide. Why? I don't actually know except that I have a tremendous amount of respect for OMs. However, I do realize that OM/non-Om is probably yet another way that mind creates separation. Perhaps I feel safer with an OM? (Looks like I am protecting that I again.) I imagine that you are getting the point from the little that I have written so far. You may even see-- how my mind operates and therefore how great my need is for a guide.

I am a Buddhist and have been meditating pretty seriously for the past 6 years. I have always had a strong feeling that what I see in this world is an illusion but I thought that seeing through the illusion was reserved only for a few fortunate people -- Tibetan lamas and Byron Katie. Since hearing about LU, I feel much more encouraged that I could do it. Everything I read points to how simple it is.

I'm not sure what else to say except that I would appreciate it if someone could take the time to guide me. I understand that the guides on this site are volunteers and that you spend a tremendous amount of energy, time and care guiding people. I thank you all for your generosity and look forward to embarking on this journey with you.

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:51 am

Hi there! I am a Triratna OM and would be happy to guide you if you would like to accept? Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:05 pm

Hi Aragon,
Great! Thank you. I accept.

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:21 pm

Hello again! Thank you for accepting me as your guide.

How would you like me to address you? Purplesnail?

Right now I'm in the UK on GMT. Are you the same?

There's a couple of formalities we need to get out of the way before we proceed:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here (homepage) & and a short video too (about us page, link at the bottom):
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

I need you to read the disclaimer:
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If you could confirm you have seen all the above - then we
can begin.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day (even if it's to tell me that you can't)
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function!

Just so you're clear about point 4 - direct experience is what is happening and sensed/observed in the present moment. If you put your hand in some water - the feelings you experience, that's direct experience. When you describe the feeling to a friend later - that's not!

I prefer to leave the Buddhist terminology behind for the purposes of this guiding. This isn't about learned knowledge, and that won't help you here anyway!

Just write from your experience, be as honest as you can - there are no wrong answers here!

If you have any questions, please let me know....

Speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:59 pm

Hi Aragon,
Yes Purplesnail or Purple snail is good -or PS if that is easier or P if you are tired. I'm not attached to my name (he,he). I am in the US on Eastern Standard time.

I have read everything you asked me to read and will try my best to adhere to all of the ground rules. I expect to be able to comply barring a massive computer problem.

I understand the concept of direct experience and will do my best to stick to it. I will try to be honest although sometimes I even trick myself.

I don't know what the quote function is -- could you explain it?
Thank you again.
ps

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:35 pm

If you press, Quick Reply, then Full Editor, place some text in, highlight it, and then press Quote
you should get this
when you press Preview...

we use it a lot here, as you'll see soon enough, it's basically a tag .... quote in square brackets to open, /quote in square brackets to close, try it and see!
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Okay Purplesnail!

Tell me first, what brings you here, what are you looking for and what do you expect to find?

Also, how do you think this will change you and your life? What do you expect to happen?

Write down a list of everything you expect from this process. How do you imagine the awakening will make you feel, what will it be like, and what do you want it to be like?

Remember - there are no wrong answers!

Speak soon, Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:46 pm

Hi Aragon,
Thank you for explaining the quote. I tried it and it worked but I don't know what I'm suppose to put in quotes.
Also, I have been a little slow on figuring out this site. In fact, I thought that you hadn't replied yesterday but I see that you had.
Anyway, here are the answers to your questions.

I am here because I have heard many positive things about this process. I am not sure exactly what I am looking for or what I expect to find. This Spring, after a lot of quiet and meditation, I had an experience in nature where the leaves and weeds and dirt all seemed to come alive, seemed to be a part of an experience with me without separation. It is difficult to explain. Could something like this happen again? I don't know. But the experience did provide a glimpse of (literally) seeing the world differently.
I have no idea how this process could change my life. I am hopeful that the awakening will make me less attached to my self, my trivia, my stories, me. I hope to be more present, less in my head and more sensitive to others and the world. I can imagine that if I do become more sensitive that this may have the effect of feeling everything more deeply which would include pain. I believe that this awakening might make me feel a little lighter, less serious, possibly freer, more connected. I would like these things to happen. However, although all of this would be nice, I am reluctant to impose too many expectations on me and this process.
Purplesnail

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi Purplesnail! Thank for your answers.....
but I don't know what I'm suppose to put in quotes.
It kind of works like this! Get it? ;)
I thought that you hadn't replied yesterday but I see that you had.
Did you see the "Subscribe Topic" button at the bottom of the page? That'll get you an email alert..
I am here because I have heard many positive things about this process. I am not sure exactly what I am looking for or what I expect to find.
Do you understand what we do here? We are here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self... We use the Direct Pointing method, which consists of a dialogue between a guide and a seeker.

Tell me, what do you understand by the words 'separate self'?
How do you experience this separate self? How does this separate self manifest experientially in your life?
When you say I, Me, my ... what are you referring to in your experience?

This Spring, after a lot of quiet and meditation, I had an experience in nature where the leaves and weeds and dirt all seemed to come alive, seemed to be a part of an experience with me without separation. It is difficult to explain. Could something like this happen again? I don't know. But the experience did provide a glimpse of (literally) seeing the world differently.
- Yes experiences can point to a new way of seeing. But we are not looking for 'an experience' here, rather a shift in perception, a new way of seeing.

I have no idea how this process could change my life. I am hopeful that the awakening will make me less attached to my self, my trivia, my stories, me.
- Just notice in the words you write, a subtle duality: will make ME less attached to MY SELF.

Notice also, obviously this cannot happen - when the self is illusory in the first place. We are not going to take anything away. What you take to be your self is an illusion. We are simply going to see this. We will see how this delusion distorts reality and causes all of your suffering.
I hope to be more present, less in my head and more sensitive to others and the world. I can imagine that if I do become more sensitive that this may have the effect of feeling everything more deeply which would include pain. I believe that this awakening might make me feel a little lighter, less serious, possibly freer, more connected. I would like these things to happen.
- Some of these expectations may come to pass. But please understand that also, they may not. Nothing changes after awakening. It is just a way to see things differently, without a “self” involved, and without thoughts gripping the mind for hours about who and how you are. This is a peace.
I am reluctant to impose too many expectations on me and this process.
- Great, but often they are hidden from view. If any arise during the process, please let me know.

Meanwhile, can you answer the questions I have asked in bold above?

Thank you, speak soon, Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:53 pm

Tell me, what do you understand by the words 'separate self'?
I understand that there at least two levels of a separate self. There is the body. Feeling like my body is a solid separate entity from the rest of the world. There is also the mental -- that my thoughts, feelings, emotions are separate from other people. I guess a third level is that my self is the most important, that it requires and deserves more attention and care than other people's selves.
How do you experience this separate self? How does this separate self manifest experientially in your life?

I feel like I am walking around by myself -- there is me and everything else. My thoughts, my feelings, my family, my friends, my work. It's almost like I live in a bubble and so does everyone else.
When you say I, Me, my ... what are you referring to in your experience?
"I" refers to a specific snail who seems to enjoy this quote button all of a sudden. More seriously I, me, my usually refers to a specific person -- me (although I realize that person is a label). This person by this name "seems" to have specific thoughts housed inside a body but actually I do not know where the thoughts are actually housed. I see that I, me and mine is wrapped around a story and a body but that nothing is actually verifiable. The experience of me as a body is very strong. The biology of this body in particular.

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:53 am

Hi Purplesnail! Yes, I like the quote function too!
There is the body. Feeling like my body is a solid separate entity from the rest of the world.
Okay great.... So maybe this 'separate self' exists as, or in the body, separate from the rest of life?

So here's the thing. You experience this separate self - I mean you've just talked about it right? So we are now going to look for it. A bit like how if a kid thinks there are monsters under the bed, well we just switch the light on and get the kid to look right under the bed for those monsters, show him or her they're not really there!!???

We do this using Direct Experience. Just to clarify what this means, I will be asking you to use the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching — to interact with the world as you experience it, and then, to the best of your ability, to describe at the most fundamental level those sensations. We call sensations before-thought-comments-on-them "direct experience".

Direct Experience is simply what you experience directly at any given moment, as opposed to when you're thinking about the experience.

Here's a simple example:
If I ask, "Are your keys in your pocket?" you might respond:
(A) I remember putting them there this morning.
(B) I usually leave them in the lock.
(C) I think they must be.
(D) Let me just see (putting hand in pocket). Yes! Here they are!

Of those responses, A, B, and C are reports about your indirect experience. They're various thoughts about the keys. Only D is a report about your direct experience. You observed and you found the keys. That's direct. And it's the only one that gives you certainty that the keys are there!

OK, here's the exercise....

Sit on a chair in a quiet room (without shoes!), eyes closed, almost as though you were going to meditate. Relax, allow yourself to quieten with a few deep breaths.
Choose a foot - left or right.
Allow your attention to rest on the place where your foot meets the floor.


In Direct Experience (DE), can you find the floor? Can you find the point at which the foot stops and the floor begins? Can you find the separation between the body and the floor?

How is separation experienced in Direct Experience?


Let me know what you find.....

Speak soon, Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:00 pm

Hi Aragon,
I did the exercise you suggested for a very long time -- maybe 40 minutes and it was very exciting! I noticed that not only could I not identify where my foot met the floor but I could not identify where my foot started or ended. I also noticed that if I imagined my feet very big, they felt big and that if I imagined them very small, they felt small. Then I lost my feet altogether. No feet. Then I did this with my whole body. Body part by body part and I could see that they were not fixed at all. They felt Invisible. My awareness did not seem to be in my body. I have done these types of exercises before but today things FELT different. Thank you.
As for your question about how is separation experienced in direct experience? I think through thought only. (I notice that I am thinking by the way). And maybe separation is experienced visually as well because when I open my eyes -- things look separate. I imagine that what I am seeing/vision is constructed by thought. Is that the problem?
Purplesnail

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:36 pm

Hi Purplesnail! Great looking!
how is separation experienced in direct experience? I think through thought only.
- yes, it is thought that 'says' that the body is separate.
And maybe separation is experienced visually as well because when I open my eyes -- things look separate. I imagine that what I am seeing/vision is constructed by thought. Is that the problem?
- I am not sure 'problem' is the word. Problem is just a label placed upon experience by thought, is it not?

Take an orange and place it on a large white sheet. Look at it, what do you see in DE? Notice in your reply, what is Direct Experience and what is 'thought speaking'.
Body part by body part and I could see that they were not fixed at all. They felt Invisible. My awareness did not seem to be in my body.
- Is the self the body?

Or is the self in the body? IF so, where in the body does the self reside - try sitting quietly eyes closed, center yourself, then point to the place where you feel the self resides. Tell me what happens...
And maybe separation is experienced visually as well because when I open my eyes -- things look separate.
- Wow! You have eyes? ;) tell me about these eyes. How are they experienced in Direct Experience?

Speak soon, Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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purplesnail
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby purplesnail » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:46 am

I am not sure 'problem' is the word. Problem is just a label placed upon experience by thought, is it not?
Yes is it a thought.

Take an orange and place it on a large white sheet. Look at it, what do you see in DE? Notice in your reply, what is Direct Experience and what is 'thought speaking'.
I see an almost round orange in color object with bumps on the outside of it. I see a shadow on the white paper. It's difficult to see where the orange ends and the paper begins. Most of this is thought speaking in the sense that I am using words created from thought such as "round" and "orange" "bumps" and "shadow" to describe what I am seeing. However, there is a direct experience that I am having through my eyes. For example, the shadow was on the right and then I changed the light and now the shadow is on the left. I can see that change directly.
try sitting quietly eyes closed, center yourself, then point to the place where you feel the self resides. Tell me what happens...
I can't find it. I can't find anyplace where the self resides.
- Wow! You have eyes? ;) tell me about these eyes. How are they experienced in Direct Experience?
I like you sense of humor Aragon. Yes I have eyes.
My first instinct was to say that right now my eyes feel tired because it's almost 10 pm and I had a long day. But actually, that's a thought -- '''tired is a thought. My eyes do not know what tired is. When I remove the thought "my eyes are tired," my eyes feel fine. I'll try another one. In my kitchen I see a whole bunch of stuff with my eyes. Objects. I see objects with my eyes. I see a computer screen with my eyes. The concept of a computer screen is a thought but there is a direct experience of a flat object that I am touching and seeing.

Great questions. This is a lot of fun. (That's a thought, by the way.)
Talk soon Aragon

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Aragon
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Re: Looking for a Triratna OM to Guide

Postby Aragon » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:59 am

Hi Purplesnail!
For example, the shadow was on the right and then I changed the light and now the shadow is on the left. I can see that change directly.
-is shadow not just colour? The boundary between two colours, what tells you that is a boundary?
I can't find it. I can't find anyplace where the self resides.
Good, is the body the self? Does the self live in the body? Are you clear about this?
Wow! You have eyes? ;) tell me about these eyes. How are they experienced in Direct Experience?
- No really, do you have eyes? What is the experience of the actual eyes in Direct Experience? How do you know you have eyes?

Aragon!
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala


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