Otter and Karen S.

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otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:31 am

Karen S



Hi Otter

Here goes....I have not removed all the likes? Thinking I perhaps should....let me know. Last message does not show smiley face so added words instead 'Yay!'

May 20 at 2:36pm
Karen says:
"I recently, at long last experienced, rather than believed there is no me! The experience since has not truly met the expectation expected....no change in life was expected....good, bad and ugly. Although I expected not to be feeling separate to others and objects..this has not happened. Maybe a too high expectation???
All ‘I’s and ‘me’s’ for convenience in conversation!
Another thing I perhaps should mention: Although I totally know there’s no me, during everyday life I still react the same to circumstances. As I did when I believed there was a ‘me’. It is only afterwards, I realise it is only thoughts, a story. There is no realisation of thoughts arising at the time of reaction....hope this makes sense!"
LikeLike •
Empty Set and 5 others like this.

Otter Rivers Don't worry about saying I or Me etc. it's fine. There are no advaita police here haha.
May 20 at 2:39pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers A) Was there ever a self at all Karen? Did you get rid if a self, or did you see there never was one?

B) Is there any such thing as self? Describe what it is.
May 20 at 2:39pm • Like • 1

Karen No, I realise now there was no self at all now or in the past...no need to get rid of one.
May 20 at 2:40pm • Like • 1

Karen a Self is just an identity that is given from a child and continues through life, not real...a label.
May 20 at 2:41pm • Like • 2

Carole Luby Sweet guys. Never was a me haha x
May 20 at 2:51pm • Unlike • 2

Otter Rivers What is it that identifies?
May 20 at 2:51pm • Like

Karen Basically family has child calls it 'Karen' then as the child grows they are given an identity. You are you, I am Mum I am Dad etc.
May 20 at 2:53pm • Like

Karen No one really to identify!
May 20 at 2:54pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers And

A) what is the illusion of separate "me"?
B) how does it start?
C) how does it work?
D) how is it maintained?
May 20 at 2:54pm • Like

Karen A. From childhood.....
May 20 at 2:55pm • Like

Karen B. Continuously treated as separate identity with others being separate identities
May 20 at 2:55pm • Like

Karen C. Continues through life, through conditioning. Karen goes to school with other identities. Karen gets married to another identity etc. etc.
May 20 at 2:56pm • Like

Otter Rivers A) from childhood? Please respond a little more in depth. The question is "what is the illusion of a separate me?"
May 20 at 3:01pm • Like

Karen The illusion of 'a separate me' is the belief that I am an individual separate from all others/objects...interesting because I see no me, however I have to say I still see other people as separate. Mmmmm???
May 20 at 3:10pm • Like

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otterrivers
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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:32 am

Karen Just talked to my son and yes he feels like a separate me............knowledge says he is not, experience feels as though he is
May 20 at 3:15pm • Like

Karen Sorry separate person/being not me.
May 20 at 3:16pm • Like

Otter Rivers Knowledge says you feel separate. But is this true in experience? Describe it. What is this feeling of separation? Describe the direct experience of it. Where is it felt in the body? Describe what it feels like
May 20 at 3:18pm • Like • 2

Otter Rivers I'm glad you're willing to take this time to respond immediately. I have plenty of time to talk.
May 20 at 3:19pm • Like • 1

Karen I look at a body (son) we talk...physically separate...his body there; this body here. Voices experienced as from two different bodies. Feels frustrating, not because of a naff conversation, because I just can find no me therefore there is no him ....but still feel separate.
May 20 at 3:22pm • Like • 1

Karen You're glad? I am over the moon and so grateful you are spending this time with me x
May 20 at 3:23pm • Like • 1

Karen If relevant ....frustration creates sensation in the gut area! Don't feel need to reject it just happening and accepting it
May 20 at 3:26pm • Like

Karen Feeling gone now
May 20 at 3:27pm • Like • 1

Jahnation Freedman Can I ask a question? What is your direct experience of having been a child, besides memories, or stories of thoughts? Were memories direct experience at one time?
May 20 at 3:43pm • Like

Otter Rivers Well we're not supposed to do this here jahnation. But it's a good point. Is there time? Is there memory or is it just this thought happening now?
May 20 at 3:44pm • Like

Otter Rivers But these are supposed to be one on one conversations. I'm not that strict about it but let's not start another conversation here. We can talk about this elsewhere. This is just gonna be a talk between Karen and I. K?
May 20 at 3:46pm • Like • 1

Karen Memories occur now, at this time of the past...does this answer the question?
May 20 at 3:46pm • Like

Otter Rivers I'll move this to a new discussion jah. I don't mind talking more about it. Just not in these comments.
May 20 at 3:47pm • Like

Otter Rivers I added Jahnation and Karen to my group and pasted your question jah. Tried to tag u but it won't let me. Just look at recent posts.
May 20 at 3:51pm • Like

Jahnation Freedman Yes, and no. It seems relative, as this is asked of me by other guides, whenever I mention childhood and memories. Thank you both. Thought stories occur now about the past. Is this directly experiencing a past? Somehow, this seemed important as to the belief in being a person, or self with a childhood, learning, etc.. No more. Another thread, I suppose, unless... you see the relevance.
May 20 at 3:51pm • Like

Otter Rivers Now let's pick up where we left off here Karen
May 20 at 3:52pm • Like

Karen Memories occur now, at this time..... of the past...does this answer the question?
May 20 at 3:52pm • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers Yeah let's talk more about it. It's just expressly against the rules of this specific group. Anywhere else is fine. I started it in my group "otter space" and added you both. A lot of the same people are in my group that are here too. It's a valid question and very relevant so I'm happy to discuss it more elsewhere
May 20 at 3:54pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers So let's pick up where we were. Are you so sure you are experiencing separation? Or is this automatic labeling the mind has learned? Here's an exercise:
May 20 at 4:01pm • Like

Otter Rivers We'll start with something simple then move on to something more complex like your son.
May 20 at 4:02pm • Like

Otter Rivers Hear any sound. What do you hear now?
May 20 at 4:02pm • Like

Karen Computer humming, dog munching biscuits!
May 20 at 4:03pm • Like

Karen Sorry in answer to your question, I believe it is the mind doing it's stuff sort of habitual labeling
May 20 at 4:05pm • Like

Otter Rivers Hear the computer humming.
May 20 at 4:07pm • Like

Karen Yes! Dog finished biscuits anyway...
May 20 at 4:07pm • Like

Otter Rivers Look for the exact line of division between the cause of the sound and the perception of the sound
May 20 at 4:07pm • Like

Otter Rivers Without using any learned explanations, describe only what is actually noticed now.
May 20 at 4:08pm • Like

Karen Cannot see any division ...sound just heard
May 20 at 4:09pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there any actual separation between the sound and the hearing?
May 20 at 4:09pm • Like

Otter Rivers We have to say things like "the sound is heard" to make sense when speaking. But we learn to see these mental symbols as the reality they are covering up
May 20 at 4:10pm • Like

Karen None what so ever in hearing. Only the knowledge that computer in front of me and body here with sound coming from computer
May 20 at 4:10pm • Like

Otter Rivers Like living on a blueprint for a house and thinking it is actually a house.
May 20 at 4:11pm • Like

Otter Rivers So take this exercise further: you could say "the computer is there and I am here" but is this actual experience or another idea we learned for convenience but then becomes taken as truth?
May 20 at 4:13pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers Look at something "close" and then something "further". Where is this perception happening? (No theory or educated perspectives. Just d.e. now)
May 20 at 4:15pm • Like

Otter Rivers D.e. = direct experience.
May 20 at 4:15pm • Like

Karen It is another idea, but it feels separate in experience. I look at something close now ....now I look at something further away, in actual direct experience they appear totally separate....knowledge tells me that the perception is happening in the brain, as I say though in experience they appear separate.
May 20 at 4:19pm • Like

Otter Rivers The experience is that there is mental labeling saying they are separate. But in actual experience, using only the senses with no mental labels, is anything closer or further?
May 20 at 4:22pm • Like

Otter Rivers Forget these theories of light and eyes and brains and distance. These are useful but for now tell me only what is experienced
May 20 at 4:24pm • Like

Karen In experience they are separate, perceived as two separate items
May 20 at 4:28pm • Like

Otter Rivers Colors (whatever those are!) contrasting other colors. Movement... That's all that is really experienced. The 5 senses. Anything else is thinking.
May 20 at 4:29pm • Like

Otter Rivers It's like this. If you hold still, you could have a toy car and hold it up to the street in front of you and it could look just the same as a bigger car that is further away
May 20 at 4:31pm • Like

Karen Sorry got it..... okay I am looking at a stapler it is black, solid no smells or sound coming from it. Further away there is the computer screen...bright rectangular photos and words on it with humming coming from it.
May 20 at 4:33pm • Like

Karen I understand your description of looking at a toy car
May 20 at 4:33pm • Like

Karen When I stare at the stapler for a while, because the computer is not far behind (within site focus) they appear to merge as one, probably because the eyes are less focused
May 20 at 4:34pm • Like

Otter Rivers When looking at the room in front of you, there are blind of colors in different angles and patterns. It is only after mental labeling that any differentiation happens. Without mental talking it is not close or far or many things.
May 20 at 4:34pm • Like

Otter Rivers The separation is a mental conclusion
May 20 at 4:35pm • Like • 1

Karen Agree totally. I can't turn thoughts off for long at all (few seconds only) but when they do stop for a while I just see colours shapes etc as you say with no labelling.
May 20 at 4:36pm • Like

Otter Rivers I know I am stating this as facts but I don't mean it that way. I don't want you to accept it as I say it. I just say it as a suggestion. To point your awareness. For you to test and challenge
May 20 at 4:36pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers Where does the sight become seen?
May 20 at 4:37pm • Like

Karen Appreciate that, my last comment is something that actually happens in direct experience. True to my experience rather than words you have written
May 20 at 4:38pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there a line of division between the perceptions and the perceiving of them?
May 20 at 4:38pm • Like

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otterrivers
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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:33 am

Karen Where does site become seen.....It doesn't no seeing of site is happening here
May 20 at 4:38pm • Like

Karen Is there a line of division between the perceptions and the perceiving of them?...No I find no line at all
May 20 at 4:40pm • Like

Karen Really sorry otter think I read that question wrong. ...is this how question is meant...i.e. is there a line between the thought of something and the actual realisation of something? If so, What I think of something can be different to how it actually is
May 20 at 4:45pm • Like

Otter Rivers I'm not asking about how things actually are. Only asking about what is undeniably noticed vs what is a thought about what is noticed
May 20 at 4:46pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers When speaking about d.e. I'm not suggesting there is a being inside the skin that is accurately directly experiencing an outer environment. By direct experience, I only mean what cannot be denied. There is a field of sensation. Then after that mind puts everything into it's proper place. Like "those shapes there are the computer. Those shapes there are a window. The window is further from this body than the computer. I remember this from past experience"
May 20 at 4:50pm • Like

Otter Rivers Let's try a simpler exercise: pick up any small object. Hold it in your hand. Ready?
May 20 at 4:52pm • Like

Karen I get that, I have just looked around the room and see various colours, shapes sizes ...however on labelling them I then see the TV the fields and hills outside the window the cup etc. But prior to putting names to them I just see all in one visual swoop, not individual
May 20 at 4:53pm • Like • 1

Karen Okay picked up the stapler!
May 20 at 4:53pm • Like

Karen thank you for patience by the way
May 20 at 4:56pm • Like

Otter Rivers Ok
May 20 at 4:58pm • Like

Otter Rivers Holding and looking at this can you find any actual line of distinction between the object and the awareness of the object?
May 20 at 4:59pm • Like

Karen No ...the object is there in awareness
May 20 at 5:00pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there stapler and me knowing the stapler? Or is it one thing happening without any disconnected observer?
May 20 at 5:00pm • Like

Otter Rivers The object is in awareness? Even that seems like a subtle separation. An object separate from the awareness it is in.
May 20 at 5:02pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is the knowing of the object anything other than the object?
May 20 at 5:02pm • Like

Otter Rivers Look for a division between stapler and knowing of stapler
May 20 at 5:03pm • Like

Otter Rivers Hear the hum of the computer. Before thinking, is there a sound emanating from an object, reaching an ear drum and being converted into electrical signals? Or is there just an experience happening here?
May 20 at 5:08pm • Like

Karen There is no division.
May 20 at 5:09pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there really a separate hearer hearing it or is it just a labeling conclusion that says this?
May 20 at 5:09pm • Like

Otter Rivers Same with distance. Hear the computer and hear something "further". At the same time
May 20 at 5:10pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there any actual separation in direct experience? Outside of thought is there any distance or is it all here? (And without a 'there' what happens to 'here'?)
May 20 at 5:11pm • Like

Karen All hearing heard at the same time close and far. It is only thought is added....'car outside' or 'computer humming' that I actually realise/create a distance between them.
May 20 at 5:12pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers So you see clearly there is no observer separate from observed? There is no "life" vs "me"? Just one happening?
May 20 at 5:13pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers Very nice.
May 20 at 5:13pm • Like • 1

Karen Yes! Can only see and hear with no finding of of an observer or hearer doing this. Just happening
May 20 at 5:14pm • Like • 1

Karen So sorry Otter I have to go and get on with dinner would rather continue this now...but hey ho! Please write any questions you have and as soon as dinner is finished I'll come back.. Thank you thank you thank you
May 20 at 5:17pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers So we got that out of the way. one of the places we tend to assume a separate self is: The observer. The one inside the skin that perceives an outside world. (but isn't the skin and inside of the body also experienced? So how could it be an experiencer?)
May 20 at 5:20pm • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers Can you think of another Category in life that we assume gives proof of a separate "me"? (Answer whenever you have time)
May 20 at 5:21pm • Like

Otter Rivers Glad you're enthusiastic about this. But don't neglect dinner and the family for this. We have time.
May 20 at 5:22pm • Like

Carole Luby So lovely this enquiry guys
May 20 at 5:28pm • Like • 2

Carole Luby But then lovely is a description and not in my experience
May 20 at 5:36pm • Like • 2

Otter Rivers Ok carol. Just gotta mention we can't converse here. This is Karen's one on one guidance.
May 20 at 5:56pm • Like • 1

Carole Luby Oh yes of course! Oops x
May 20 at 5:57pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers Sorry don't get mad at me!!! Lol
May 20 at 5:57pm • Like • 1

Carole Luby Lol as if!
May 20 at 5:58pm • Like

Otter Rivers
May 20 at 5:58pm • Like

Otter Rivers (I wonder what she's cooking us)
May 20 at 5:59pm • Unlike • 2

Karen I'm Back! Can you think of another Category in life that we assume gives proof of a separate "me"? (Answer whenever you have time).................................... When I am with other people. Can't understand this. But it is as though they are separate and they are individual personalities, with little 'me's' still. I know logically that there are different personalities within the body. I also know from my experience there is no me so how on earth can there be little 'me's' in them????? Do you think I am still clinging to a separate self in some way? I have wondered this and have tried to find any existence of a self in anyway and still can not find me anywhere...'I' just do not exist only this body. Only thoughts, senses etc.
May 20 at 6:03pm • Edited • Like

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otterrivers
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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:33 am

Karen It was cottage pie....luckily made it this morning! It was yummy though none left...
May 20 at 6:17pm • Like

Otter Rivers So you are not separate but "others" are? Hahaha
May 20 at 11:32pm • Like

Otter Rivers There is separation or there is not, right?
May 20 at 11:32pm • Like

Otter Rivers How is it different with other bodies than it is with the stapler or the hum of the computer? There are different personalities, but isn't the stapler also different than the hum of the computer? The form is different but only after some mental working.
May 20 at 11:34pm • Like

Otter Rivers When looking at or talking to your son, is it any different than looking around the room earlier today? There is color, movement, sound, thoughts... It is just labelled as another person in thought but really it's just experience in the five senses.
May 20 at 11:36pm • Like

Karen Thank you for these questions Otter I am going to sit with these. Just off to bed now. Be back tomorrow.
May 21 at 12:33am • Like • 1

Otter Rivers
May 21 at 3:09pm • Like

Karen Hello Otter Rivers, The only difference is when I was looking at the stapler, listening to the hum and looking around the room. I went into a sort of zone. When I am talking to a person I see them as separate.
May 21 at 3:35pm • Like • 1

Karen I have today been considering this and I think this is what happens.. when I am speaking looking at someone ...thoughts are labelling and there is no control over it.
May 21 at 3:35pm • Like • 1

Karen Feeling extremely frustrated! Agggh
May 21 at 3:38pm • Like • 1

Karen Since seeing 'no-self' I have not had a desire to search any more. But frustration prompted me to look at articles on LU and I read "Integrating View and Experience
by Soh Wey Yu
May 21 at 3:39pm • Like • 1

Karen The second paragraph resonates with my experience. Really appreciate your thoughts...believe me today I have shouted at myself (not out loud...don't want time contemplating in a secure unit) sworn at myself to look...see ...notice....to no avail
May 21 at 3:41pm • Like • 1

Karen The experience is just happening....no controller is separating what is seen through the eyes, my eyes are seeing separate people and objects ....thinking is labelling everything.communicating with the eyes and causing separation. This is the experience happening. The thinking has always been highly active in this life form and continues to be so. There is no I doing it, it is just happening. If the thinking was slower, maybe no boundary experienced.
May 21 at 5:18pm • Like • 1

Karen Frustration was happening because thinking made a story out of it: "This is wrong, should not see separation"........ Frustration accepted, what is happening accepted. Still separation, that is it
May 21 at 5:19pm • Edited • Like • 2

Otter Rivers "I have shouted at myself & sworn at myself to look...see ...notice....to no avail"

Haha. Would you have to shout at yourself to tell me if the light is on or off in the room? It's that simple. It's not a special kind of seeing. You just look for self and tell me what you find. And then we investigate that. Take it eeeeeaaaaasyyyy!
May 21 at 5:27pm • Unlike • 2

Otter Rivers Yeah it's nothing to get frustrated about. It's not like you're being asked to fly up into the sky by pulling on your shoelaces. Lol. Just look and report
May 21 at 5:29pm • Like

Otter Rivers So when speaking to another human, there are reactive thoughts and some anxieties that you label "feeling separate". Can you see they are not really feelings of separation? Just feeling reactions that you have learned to label "separation"
May 21 at 5:31pm • Edited • Like

Karen Yep! screaming banshees definitely happened here. I think one day no separation will be truly 'seen' the experience of no self creates the knowledge that those I speak with too have no little controller in them. This to me is freedom. I see it, rightly or wrongly...who cares??? No one here to care! Perhaps there is a path started and perhaps much more to happen yet. Including breaking through an illusion of separation by site and thinking. Whatever, this is it for now! Otter thank you.
May 21 at 5:34pm • Like

Karen Please feel free to fire any questions if there are any.
May 21 at 5:35pm • Like

Karen Whoops question popped up while writing this....
May 21 at 5:35pm • Like

Otter Rivers Because feelings and thoughts happen as reaction is this evidence AT ALL of any separation? Humans seem to be social animals. We look for reactions in others and feel different based on how they react. Doesn't this seem normal? Or is this an indication that you haven't truly seen through the illusion that you are a separate little bubble in a body?!
May 21 at 5:36pm • Like

Karen Yes, it is a thought doing it, what else could it be? Many years of habit I guess could be a culprit!
May 21 at 5:36pm • Like

Otter Rivers What is a thought doing?
May 21 at 5:37pm • Like

Otter Rivers Habits happen but is there a doer of the habitual actions? What is self other than a thought "this is me, that is not me"? And can a thought think? Can a thought take actions?
May 21 at 5:39pm • Like

Karen Thought is doing a too good a job! My thoughts have always been hyper! Feelings and thoughts are not evidence of separation. They are strong and I feel I can be sucked into believing them then realise they are just illusionary. I still feel there could be more work, this seems to be a continuous looking. But I know there is no me or controller (that sentence doesn't make sense...but sure you know the meaning...) that knowing is a wonderful sense of freedom. My biggest want/expectation from this was unconditional love for all. Therefore I know there is a need to look more through the illusion
May 21 at 5:42pm • Like

Otter Rivers Sure. It is a simple seeing but it's impact is boundless. It pulls the bottom out of the box there's no ground to stand on. Well let's keep looking then. Are you the receiver if what happens? Are you the perceiver?
May 21 at 5:45pm • Like

Karen A thought cannot think...just thoughts....they can not take any action at all. No doer of the habitual actions. Thinking is the only habit. Memories are not happening, thinking just using past
May 21 at 5:45pm • Like

Otter Rivers And how about the doer? The originator of action? The chooser? The decider?
May 21 at 5:46pm • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:36 am

Otter Rivers I have to go for a bit now but I'll be back later to chat more!
May 21 at 5:47pm • Like

Karen There is an awareness of what happens through the senses. For example sight or hearing and there is no choice in what is received.
May 21 at 5:51pm • Like

Karen Definitely no chooser or decision maker. This was a tough one for me it was through looking deeply at this I eventually found there was no me to choose or make a decision. Life is happening
May 21 at 5:54pm • Edited • Like • 1

Karen Thanks Otter, speak later
May 21 at 5:54pm • Like

Otter Rivers Is there an awareness of the senses in your actual direct experience? Or is this just a clever idea? We can see there is sensation but is it true that there is a separate knowing of it or is the sensation the same as the knowing of it? Look for this line of separation? If it exists, look for it's exact location. Don't accept what "must me true"
May 21 at 5:56pm • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers Bye for now
May 21 at 5:57pm • Like

Karen Okay put this to the test:

Sight ....I looked at a mug full of tea. I see a white mug with a picture of a white parrot in it foliage around it. Tea inside is brown and there is steam rising. All the time I label it as a mug of tea....separate knowing..... The physical location of the separation is between my eyes, then space then mug on the computer desk. I make a point of not labelling still same separation physically.
May 21 at 6:26pm • Edited • Like

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otterrivers
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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:37 am

Karen Touch...Pick up mug....warm....hands feel warm, separation not so apparent...but still a vague separate line between hand and mug.
May 21 at 6:26pm • Like

Karen Hearing ....computer humming....although I can think and label this as coming from the computer (separate from me) in truth I don’t feel a separation from the sound. A car in distance, although in distance again no feeling of separation
May 21 at 6:27pm • Like

Karen Going to continue trying this until you return xxx
May 21 at 6:27pm • Like

Karen Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Your patience is soooo appreciated
May 21 at 6:28pm • Like

Karen Hi Otter Rivers. Still seeing everything as separate I'm afraid. Tested different situations today.
May 22 at 3:48pm • Like

Otter Rivers Sorry I'm not ignoring you. Internet connectivity issues. Will respond ASAP. Just woke up at 5am and saw the internet is working again
May 23 at 1:44pm • Unlike • 1

Otter Rivers Oh I see you didn't respond. Well go ahead and respond so I can apologize correctly lol
May 23 at 1:48pm • Edited • Unlike • 1

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otterrivers
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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:08 am

Karen Okay, further update. This morning I was making scones. For a short while (very short) whilst I was working the mixture it felt as though all was happening at the same time (sorry not sure how better to explain) It was like a glimpse of non-separation.
May 23 at 2:34pm • Edited • Like • 1

Karen Last night we had problems with our teenage son. I said we will talk about it in the morning (usual practice). Usually would lie awake....upset, cross...planning how to handle the situation
May 23 at 2:35pm • Like

Karen But no, I couldn't hold on to any emotion or plan anything....This morning it was hard to speak with him because all feelings had passed. I definitely do not have a self.... I don't hear thoughts they are happening fast and furious but I don't believe them.----I have been like this since seeing no self
May 23 at 2:38pm • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:09 am

Karen I just seem to have a problem with the separate issue...I realise this does not make sense lol. At the time of conversation with others it is taken as quite real (not as much as when I intellectually understood) but afterwards conversations definitely feels like a play/role everyone is playing. Hope these words make sense!!!!
May 23 at 3:42pm • Edited • Like

Karen Should add, the feeling with the scone making of non-separateness was different to the stapler etc. Then it was more a case of my eyes going dreamy. This morning definitely alert when it happened.
May 23 at 2:55pm • Like

Karen Hi, Otter Rivers. just disappearing for 10 ish minutes! As Arnie would say: 'I'll be back'!
May 23 at 3:45pm • Like

Karen Ok...back!
May 23 at 3:55pm • Like

Otter Rivers It's saying you responded but i don't see it. Could be FB delay. I'll check back in a few hours.
May 23 at 4:00pm • Like

Karen OK....time difference a problemo! I'm okay for next four hours if okay with you.
May 23 at 4:06pm • Like

Karen Tomorrow I am working all day followed by family birthday event - so please don't think I am ignoring you then. Sunday be back about five our time (hour later than now) and same Monday x
May 23 at 4:07pm • Like

Otter Rivers Jahnation sent me your recent replies. I'm sure they will show up here soon but for now I'll read those and respond in a few hours.
May 23 at 4:18pm • Like

Karen Thank you otter x
May 23 at 4:58pm • Like

Karen Thank you Jahnation Freedman
May 23 at 5:01pm • Like

Karen Hi Otter Rivers...sorry off to my bed....early start tomorrow... I promise to check in even if I can't get to answer you tomorrow... Will look into any questions you may have....catch you soon x
May 23 at 10:42pm • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers Ok I just got a chance to reply. Crazy day at work. I see that you are saying that because you still sometimes react in certain situations as if there was a real separation, that you are in fact seeing everything as separate. Do you see my logic? Next time you are in a hectic situation (life offers plenty. It shouldn't take long.) look at what is actually happening. Sounds, sights, feelings in the body, mental pictures and words... Seen by what? Heard and felt by what? Is there actually any separate observer vs experience?
May 24 at 2:31am • Unlike • 1

Otter Rivers It's easy in mild situations. Thats why we start with the stapler or hum of the computer. But the same applies in every situation. The truth doesn't change because you feel different. I understand some situations we are seemingly programmed to feel and react a certain way. As if we needed to act on behalf of "me" as an entity separate from life. And this causes feelings. Sensations and thoughts arise. You can call this a feeling or sensing of separate-ness but it's just a feeling arising now right? So test it out at the next opportunity. Experience doesn't lie. Only our interpretations of direct experience can be incorrect. So to the extent possible, don't interpret. Just look at the arising sensations. Is there a separation between the happening (ANY happening) and the knowing of that happening?
May 24 at 2:38am • Like

Otter Rivers Without this separation, what happens to "me"? Also you said you don't have a self. So what is it that has the self or not? Take your time but don't over think it. Just look and report what is seen.
May 24 at 2:41am • Like

Karen What you said makes sense:-

"I understand some situations we are seemingly programmed to feel and react a certain way. As if we needed to act on behalf of "me" as an entity separate from life. And this causes feelings. Sensations and thoughts arise. You can call this a feeling or sensing of separate-ness but it's just a feeling arising now right? So test it out at the next opportunity. Experience doesn't lie. Only our interpretations of direct experience can be incorrect. So to the extent possible, don't interpret."

I feel separate because of my thoughts interpretation...not seeming to be able to stop the interpretation, but do recognise this is what it is on reflection, after the event, sometimes quite quickly.
May 25 at 5:37pm • Like • 1

Karen Because the interpretation and event happen simultaneously; unable to "just look at arising happening" at the time, only after!
May 25 at 5:39pm • Like

Karen 2nd question.....poor wording on my side. Nothing...no one has a self. There is no self. Just a body with thoughts, biological actions.
May 25 at 5:41pm • Like

Otter Rivers So you see that "feeling separate" is just bad wording too?
May 25 at 5:46pm • Like

Otter Rivers What you actually experience, is this separation or an interpretation of sensations?
May 25 at 5:47pm • Like

Otter Rivers And when you say thereis no self, just a body etc. what is this self that there is not?
May 25 at 5:49pm • Like

Karen I believe now that separation appears to be happening but guessing this is due to simultaneous interpretation.
May 25 at 5:53pm • Like

Karen "What is the self that is not?"

What self??? Now't here! (Yorkshire speak) Traveling on empty! Load of hot air! Zilch! No one at home!
May 25 at 5:57pm • Like

Karen Question: read that peeps can sort of notice thoughts as they happen or realise the gaps between thoughts.
May 25 at 5:59pm • Like

Karen This would allow all interpretation to be seen immediately or quicker. The thoughts occurring here are so bloody quick, don't have time. Lol. Any ideas on how to notice as they happen or realise the gaps???
May 25 at 6:01pm • Like

Otter Rivers What you're asking for is a technique. Usually meditation works great for that. But the gate is just the realization that there is no separation of me vs what is experienced
May 25 at 6:09pm • Like

Otter Rivers It's not about results. Just seeing.
May 25 at 6:10pm • Like

Otter Rivers When I ask what is this self that doesn't exist, I mean:

What is the illusion of separate self? How does it work?
May 25 at 6:11pm • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:10 am

Karen Thanks Otter:
What is the illusion of separate self?

It is the thought that claws away trying to hook a belief there is an owner of a thought, sensation, emotion or action. It is a deceiver hiding the truth that works so very hard to not be seen through.
May 25 at 6:24pm • Like

Karen It is make-believe, like a fairy tale, can present itself like a monster in the wardrobe.
May 25 at 6:26pm • Like

Karen It can be seen through! Because it is in truth, an amazing illusion!
May 25 at 6:27pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers How does it start? How is it maintained?
May 25 at 6:29pm • Like

Karen It starts from parents giving an identification through out a child's life. This conditioning carries on through life, at school, through work. The thoughts are great at trolling through the past making that, the present illusion and seeking for an illusionary future.
May 25 at 6:36pm • Like

Karen It is maintained through belief in thoughts
May 25 at 6:36pm • Like

Karen This morning, this body awoke early. It took itself out of bed and walked into the garden. It smelt the unique smell of dew and heard the morning chorus of birds. This, in turn, made the mouth turn up into a smile. The eyes saw the sun just happened to be rising and the thought 'Ah beautiful' arose a split second later. This left the body, returning to bed, nourished and happy. ..amazing, did it all by itself. This is truly a mystery. Gratitude abounded, from where is not known. The need to know was not there. It happened...it was a beautiful thing to happen. Who or what knows what will happen today?
May 26 at 10:00am • Edited • Like • 3

Otter Rivers Please describe the differences in life from before this seeing through separation and after. Give an example or two.
May 27 at 10:32am • Like

Karen Hi Otter, is it okay if long winded?? A lot has been realised the last few days???
May 27 at 1:57pm • Like • 1

Karen Don't want to bore you..ha ha
May 27 at 1:57pm • Like

Karen Sorry Otter Rivers, going to waffle away. Excuse the 'I's and 'me's! I had a realisation this weekend that resolved all doubt. Here goes, get ready...War and Peace length report!

Before seeing through separation there was a personality owned by a fictitious 'I' sad, even depressed held by an illusion of 'me being unhappy. There was constant thoughts of past and fears and optimism for the future for this individual considered separate from all in present and past life. A continuous search was occurring for a happier life, one with unconditional love abounding. Books and reading of all to do with enlightenment, was devoured in hunger.

I came across LU, the question of is there a self? Was raised.

The question who I was, is there a me started. I had a sensation in my solar plexus. It was a weird, somehow pleasurable and bubbly but also verging on a painful experience. A decision was made that I would contact the site when time allowed. I had no clue what 'Direct Experience' meant...I just pondered on the question in different ways.

Sometime, when, is unknown, in this timeless realm, there is a memory of waking up in the morning feeling light and joyful with unexplainable gratitude for life. a memory of working in the café with a feeling of love for all...a connection to all......bliss. Such joy inspired me to definitely want to contact LU in the near future. If just the knowledge brought about such joy, the actual must be fantastic said thought.

This blissful feeling lasted just a few days, during which, there was a knowing a message had to be sent to a FB friend, a stranger in truth, known only through her singing and a network of local musicians. Never had we conversed. The recipient was Ruth Nuttalll. The message just said: "Thought you would be interested in this site" with a link to LU.

Thought said, "I must too make contact with LU and read more books to understand more". Once the search recommenced, the gratitude for this finding could no longer be seen, no understanding of having already finding freedom was known. The illusion of thought had hooked into a searching again. The fantasy of the content of thoughts, not realised. A belief in needing to search hsd arisen again. However, the non-risistance, acceptance to feelings within the body remained.

Whilst searching, a comment made by Wind Dancer on a FB site caused a question. "This is it" Wind stated, a feeling of bitterness arose. Then acceptance. Then a feeling of lightness. Another question from Wind caused more looking...."If there is a self, you'd be able to decide how you feel". I couldn't find a self. The bliss returned.

I came to this site for after care from the finding of freedom...then panicked when all seemed separate! Did I still have a belief in a me? No, so why and on it went.

Your words, dear Otter....a sensing of separateness...thoughts and feelings, programming. Ha Ha, the expectation was that non separation was a pure, constant oneness. An Eckhart Tolle, Buddah experience.

It was only when Ruth raised the question this weekend if I felt I had never seen no-me, that a total knowing came over. I had experienced freedom back when I woke that morning to bliss. The thoughts had been believed, a belief for a need to search had took hold. The understanding of separation had become lost in a sea of thoughts.

Yes! No separateness is found, in day to day life with other body forms, there is a play occurring, with thoughts creating a sensation of separateness. In truth there is none!
May 27 at 3:53pm • Edited • Like • 1

Otter Rivers I haven't read it yet but I'll say this: try talking without "i's and me's". Good luck with that. We have to create an imagination of duality to make a point. . So feel free to say "I" and "me" all u want. It's my job to distinguish what you mean by those words. An innocent use of conventional speech? Or words pointing at a belief in separate identity? Ok reading now.
May 28 at 5:21am • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers It sounds pretty cool to me. Before we move on though, allow me to nit pick (it's kind if what we do. Not to be the word police but just for clarification. Consider it customer service. We're not doing any favors by saying you are done before we exhaust all possibilities!)

But you say:
"Before seeing through separation there was a personality owned by a fictitious 'I' "
May 28 at 5:29am • Edited • Like

Otter Rivers Was there really?
May 28 at 5:29am • Like

Otter Rivers Also I did enjoy that. It was a perfect rant. I'm glad you unloaded like that! But I also notice you didn't give examples from before this realization and after. Can I have at least one specific "before and after" story?
May 28 at 5:33am • Like

Karen Nit Pick away as much and as long as necessary...
May 28 at 2:54pm • Like

Karen First "Personality owned by a fictitious 'I'.....Yep, there is this body with a personality that felt it had a controller called 'I'. Personality still there....controller gone...
May 28 at 2:55pm • Like

Karen Examples from before and after, total honesty of how experienced before and after:
May 28 at 2:55pm • Edited • Like

Karen Before, there was a depressed me with a bubbly pretending to be happy exterior......without realising it I was 'self absorbed'. I took comments to heart and personally. If I felt upset, emotional I used to think myself out of it. Upsets etc. just went deeper, never resolved.
May 28 at 2:57pm • Edited • Like

Karen Comments that affected me most, was from someone very close, relationship wise, who sometimes says cutting hurtful things at the time, and forget in the morning...defence mechanism was to take verbal abuse, stay awake at night, then bury it all and get back on with the next day.
May 28 at 3:03pm • Edited • Like

Karen Now, no change in situation, when it happens, I still feel all the emotions but there is no resistance to the emotions as they happen, they dissolve away usually incredibly quickly.
May 28 at 3:05pm • Edited • Like • 1

Karen Example 2: Before I felt isolated, lonely and depressed....a real 'selfy' on her own....(get the violins out!!!)
May 28 at 3:07pm • Like

Karen Now, feel a sort of connections to all....Just can not use the words: 'no separation'. In truth, I see others and objects with a sort of connection. I think I was taking the word separation too literal???? I can look around a room for example, and see colours and shapes, if not labelling...but they are either on 'me', close or distant. I imagined 'no separation' to mean the world was seen like a sea with all things like objects and people being the ocean/waves no physical separation. As I say, the thought is that I was considering the terminology too literally????
May 28 at 3:12pm • Like

Karen I can not stop thinking by any will, I can not recognise gaps between thinking, perhaps a technique as you say. I do not experience a feeling of spaciousness, but as I said before, I think my expectations must have been too high
May 28 at 3:14pm • Like

Karen I did find this 'lack' frustrating, but realised there was still seeking for more rather than an acceptance for what is.
May 28 at 3:16pm • Like • 1

Karen I hope the above offers some clarification of what is occurring here. Again I must thank you so much for your patience Otter Rivers, it is outstanding!
May 28 at 3:17pm • Like • 2

Otter Rivers You say there was a controller but now it is gone. If there never was a separate self outside if thinking, (I mean what was self except a habitual tendency in thought which claimed all experience?) then how could this be gotten rid of? How can something that was never there disappear? Imagine an apple in your hand. Maybe it is deep purple. Imagine the weigh and feel if it. The smell. Have a bite. How does it taste? Now open your eyes and check it out. Where did this imagination go? Can you get rid of what was not there? Was there ever a controller or was this just another thought?
May 28 at 6:41pm • Like

Otter Rivers "I think I was taking the word separation too literal". Ah. See it's that simple. Right? Same with "me, I, myself, choose, react, experienced, did, you". All these words just don't have to be taken literally. . It's so simple when you glimpse that. Yet so profound!
May 28 at 6:45pm • Unlike • 1

Otter Rivers Also you say you don't feel this spacious feeling that you expected. And it's true, this isn't a goal but it is a side effect. Sure you don't feel it all the time. Consciousness gets suckered into the dream much of the time. But looking now, sensing all and seeing there is no sensing, sensed, and sense-er as separate happenings, but just one flowing.... What is the feeling that arises now?
May 28 at 6:50pm • Like

Otter Rivers Which leads perfectly to my next question which was
"How does it feel to see this?"
May 28 at 6:52pm • Like

Karen Ha...ha, poor wording, no controller...purely a belief of an 'I' controlling...the story of thoughts!
May 28 at 7:04pm • Like • 1

Karen Yes, the literal thing. So true: "simple and profound". It reminds me of those pictures that used to be around. At first glance it looked like a mass of colour markings then suddenly ....after looking at it for a while, there appear a picture! Once it is seen, it is seen! What seemed hard was in fact, so simple! (Hope you know the pictures I mean)
May 28 at 7:12pm • Like

Otter Rivers I do. When I finally got how to see it, it became easy. .
May 28 at 7:13pm • Unlike • 1

Karen "Spaciousness...feeling that arises?"..... It is too beautiful for words, but so very natural, so hard to explain. Sort of like laying in a cloud, a safe haven that's always been....alas always short-lived. Thinking doesn't stop long and this blissful feeling dissipates, the thoughts are not believed, but are disruptive. I am unable to remain in consciousness and observe/notice, see thoughts arising. (Not right words as nobody to observe, notice, see....hard to put into words).
May 28 at 7:26pm • Like • 1

Karen How does it feel to see this?....to see what? Consciousness? If so, no seeing....just a feeling of coming home is the best way I can word it. It just feels so natural.
May 28 at 7:29pm • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:20 am

Karen To see (at last...Doh!) understanding of non-separation? Like now, this moment is magical!
May 28 at 7:41pm • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:27 am

Otter Rivers What was the last bit that got you to finally see? What exactly happened. Can you relay the story?

May 30 at 6:30pm · Like
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Karen I saw (without realising) the morning I woke up with tremendous joy. At the time I thought I had seen only intellectually as I didn't understand what direct experience meant and thought a guide was needed.

May 31 at 12:49am · Like
..










Karen I realised when I looked at a pointer raised by Wind Dancer: if there is a self thinking, why not thinking only happy thoughts? All clicked as it were and deepened

May 31 at 1:02am · Edited · Unlike · 2
..










Karen In between these two, I experienced lots of emotions some very intense and painful along with a belief from thought that seeking needed to continue

May 31 at 1:05am · Like · 1
..










Otter Rivers Ooh 222 comments? I feel a little sad to ruin it with #223

May 31 at 7:41am · Like · 1

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:28 am

Otter Rivers What was the last bit that got you to finally see? What exactly happened. Can you relay the story?

May 30 at 6:30pm · Like
..










Karen I saw (without realising) the morning I woke up with tremendous joy. At the time I thought I had seen only intellectually as I didn't understand what direct experience meant and thought a guide was needed.

May 31 at 12:49am · Like
..










Karen I realised when I looked at a pointer raised by Wind Dancer: if there is a self thinking, why not thinking only happy thoughts? All clicked as it were and deepened

May 31 at 1:02am · Edited · Unlike · 2
..










Karen In between these two, I experienced lots of emotions some very intense and painful along with a belief from thought that seeking needed to continue

May 31 at 1:05am · Like · 1
..










Otter Rivers Ooh 222 comments? I feel a little sad to ruin it with #223

May 31 at 7:41am · Like · 1

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:33 am

Otter Rivers Karen, do you decide, choose, or control life in any way?
May 31 at 3:45pm • Like

Karen Nope! No way at all. All occurring on its own! Lots of comments...just proves the patience you have and the amount of waffle I have! Lol!
May 31 at 3:53pm • Like • 1

Otter Rivers You haven't required much patience from me.
May 31 at 3:54pm • Like • 1

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:33 am

Otter Rivers Can you give an example from the last week or so where it was made clearly apparent that there was indeed no actual chooser choosing?
May 31 at 3:55pm • Like

Karen This body woke up every day, it worked, it smiled, it laughed, it felt sad. It walked the dog, it cooked it cleaned.....it thought (a lot...lol) and you know? ....it all just happened, all by itself. Just like the great British weather, no controller.
May 31 at 3:58pm • Like • 2

Karen Beg to differ...lots of patience from you! Oh and thoughts disagreed with another thought from a body named Otter!
May 31 at 3:59pm • Edited • Like

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Re: Otter and Karen S.

Postby otterrivers » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:34 am

Otter Rivers Can I have one specific example? A story?
May 31 at 3:59pm • Like

Karen Sorry...so long still working! Last night I was getting ready for work. Question from thought, which top to wear? body went outside to check temperature, eyes looked up to check if rain likely. Thought decided what to wear. No controller.
May 31 at 4:41pm • Like • 1

Karen Just now, thirsty...tea or cold drink. Tea decided based on experience of tea being a pick-me-up and complementary to chocolate bar being eaten!
May 31 at 4:43pm • Like • 2

Karen Got home from work desperate to get in the shower....knew my son would be home soon'ish with no key, do I? or don't I? Thought listened to body wants, and said yep! Rushed into shower... Body hot sticky, went to thought...decision made, no chooser, decision made by body wants/needs....wrong decision by the way, annoyed son waiting outside!
June 1 at 4:32pm • Edited • Like • 2


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