Obsessive seeker seeking unemplyment

[Cam-RT]

What do you mean when you say to look behind/beyond/below? Is that to look for where something arises from? I have been frustrated, or my mind has, as if I can't see it. I also see some doubt, will I ever see this without losing the knowing of it.

Okay, without the thoughts....You said it yourself " I can't see it" so there's NOTHING there right?

These thought's are floating around in your head, and there's NOTHING creating these thoughts RIGHT??

So there's thought, but no thinker behind these thoughts...Is this true??

LOOK!!!

[pierre]

This I know:

There is no self without "thought".
There appears to be a self with thought.
Emotions/sensations are experienced, but there not "my experience" unless thought is added to them.
- They are more difficult for me to "not think about and make personal."

"THERE IS NO THINKER OF THOUGHTS"
Can't say I have seen through this one. Yes, thoughts often appear in a random nonpersonal fashion but there still appears to be a me that can direct focus, ie.... can choose to focus on something specific when I want to. There appears to be a me that can choose to relax focus or to focus. Granted, I know much of what appears is based on previous experience/patterns, but the ability to focus or not keeps me from seeing that "there is no thinker of thoughts" Honestly, Pierre

[Cam-RT]

Hey Pierre...

This I know:

There is no self without "thought".
There appears to be a self with thought.
Emotions/sensations are experienced, but there not "my experience" unless thought is added to them.
- They are more difficult for me to "not think about and make personal.

Sorry...Pierre no " The Self" IS an illusion...and then there's thought which is also NOT real.

The job of the mind is to think...Thoughts happen, so just let them be...They in no way have anything to do with being "YOU".

Okay let's try this...

Question:  Outside of a thought, belief, or memory, where or what is Pierre??

[pierre]

Outside of a thought, belief or memory....where or what is Pierre"

Brilliant question! The answer is nowhere. It seems that a "pierre" started with a thought, that was believed and turned into a memory.

With thought and sensations:

Where is Pierre? Always in the body. A vague, sensory experience between the heart and the head. Sounds stupid but when I look for a location thats all that comes up. Like a combination of feeling, sensations and thought that rises up out of that area. Sometimes it feels like "I' comes out of the throat area, sometimes the head, sometimes the heart, and sometimes all of the above.

What is Pierre? A body from which these unique experiences eminate.

[Cam-RT]

Good Evening Pierre...

Brilliant question! The answer is nowhere. It seems that a "pierre" started with a thought, that was believed and turned into a memory.

Excellent answer!! Now let's stick with this and don't waver from it...from this point where you're staring right at The Gate.

Where is Pierre? Always in the body. A vague, sensory experience between the heart and the head. Sounds stupid but when I look for a location thats all that comes up. Like a combination of feeling, sensations and thought that rises up out of that area. Sometimes it feels like "I' comes out of the throat area, sometimes the head, sometimes the heart, and sometimes all of the above.

Let's clarify, the thought vs. body connection...

The mind, in addition to being an incredible processing and storage device, is also a labeling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens.

Here's how it occurs...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled---New trigger---Feeling gets more intense ---More labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This is what go's on endlessly when " I " is at the centre...

Now I want you to think of a uncomfortable thought...(The more negative the better.)  Pick a couple, (You know those reoccurring ones that really bug you.)

Do you feel how the body reacts when these thoughts are revisited??

It's that physical connection that we are going to focus on and practice; Remember the body doesn't lie...When the body feels threatened it will react to protect itself...Same as if someone was to threaten to "hit" you and the reflex that follows to protect the body.... You'll notice the same reaction or "connection" with other negative thoughts / feelings like...
Anger,  frustration, sadness, depression, impatients, anxiety  etc...

So there's this body...Called Pierre....In It's mind, it refers to thoughts, ego, and memories (forget beliefs they are of no use and merely distract the "host".) ALL OF WHICH DO NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE...

Are you with me here?....Is this true???

Don't agree with me here...Try and prove me wrong on this...

[pierre]

So are you saying that:

The body responds to thought......whatever it is and without any ability to determine if its reality or not

Thought is not reality......it's just judgement that arises based on the assumption of a self and how anything effects this self

So the sensory experience of "where is Pierre" is just a bunch of subjective responses the inacurate mind has come up with. So the sense of location is a bunch of crap. Its just the interplay between the
thoughts and sensations based on a faulty assumption...... that it's me.

[Cam-RT]

Hey Pierre...

The body responds to thought......whatever it is and without any ability to determine if its reality or not.

Yup, I'm sure you're familiar with this, like in the animal kingdom...That genetic instinct that the body uses for survival...

Thought is not reality......it's just judgement that arises based on the assumption of a self and how anything effects this self

In essence Yes, It's ALL just thought...

So the sensory experience of "where is Pierre" is just a bunch of subjective responses the inacurate mind has come up with. So the sense of location is a bunch of crap. Its just the interplay between the
thoughts and sensations based on a faulty assumption...... that it's me

Again Yes...A bit convoluted, but Yes...

The important thing here to note is...The reason you need to "look" and confirm this in your own mind is, that this "dysfunction" of the mind must be "triggered" by the acknowledgement (NOT AGREEMENT) with the challenging of these thoughts...Furthermore you NEED to be honest (with yourself) in seeing the delusion of "No-Self" to the very core of your mind... or...THIS WILL NOT WORK...

This is where a lot of people get stuck...We as guides merely provide the tools and point the way...
YOU MUST HAVE THE COURAGE AND DETERMINATION TO ACHIEVE THIS...We are here to help but there is no magic "pill" or "bullet" to bring this about.

Neither holy or wise, we are just ordinary people who have completed "The Work".

I need you to acknowledge the above to me that you have fully understood this.

[pierre]

Cam -RT

Acknowledged. I have had what experentially is a massive breakthrough. The minds obsessive seeking has been undermined. Not by more thinking, even about this, but a deep exhaustion. I thought I needed to seek. to figure things out etc....But it's all just the minds game. I no longer want to play . I 'm way too exhausted to give a shit about expectations, responsibilities, emotional energies, thoughts etc... I have given "myself" full permission to let go of any and all IDEAS about how "my" life should go. None of these things are "me". Frankly, I am not sure of what me is but thats perfectly ok. I am honoring all the exhaustion that resulted from trying to be a me. There is nothing holding the self together anymore..... nothing to keep, to protect, to keep, to expect etc... How liberating to not give a ````` anymore about ME. Everything is welcome in this space, I no longer have the energy to fight anything. I just keep honoring my exhaustion and letting go of any sense of responsibility or effort. I think this self apparently wasen't aware I could give myself permission to Honor this experential exhaustion and give up all effort.... stepping completely out of all the minds games.

[Cam-RT]

Pierre...YOUR RIGHT THERE KEEP GOING!!!

JUST LET GO....THERE'S NOTHING AT ALL TO FEAR!!

DON'T LET ANTHING STOP YOU!! JUST DO IT!!

[pierre]

Cam,
Thanks for the pointing. Circumstantially nothing has changed, still experiencing some physical symptoms, but they and everything else mean nothing to me. "I" appear to be a contextual field in which the same things appear but are no longer personal. Strangely, I no longer have the desire to control, change or manipulate anything that appears including thoughts about "ME" and my experience. Thought still appears and I still think about things but underlying it all is a silent, present field that is not caught up in it or any-thing else. I can think or not think and often I just relax in the still field observing "the game" as it appears and disappears. There is no effort whatsoever. Occasionally, there appears something the mind/personality wants to take on but there is no desire or energy to want anything but "this". The mental game was exhausting and giving myself permission to really let down and let go of figuring and following ANY THOUGHTS has been a great release into this wordless experience.

Is there a self> Hell no. There is however A field, a quiet context in which the things I use to personalize appear in. There is an absence of time, just a present moment that carries no history with it into the "next moment'. But really there never is a next remembered moment. Its wonderful.

[Cam-RT]

Hey Pierre...

Hmmm... Not sure where your at, but like i said before. You get this 'AND' there appears to be some sort of shift, though I may be wrong.... At first When it happened to me I wasn't sure either. So I waited a couple of day's focusing on if the connection to the "Self" to see if in fact it was broken and "seen" for what it was, "Nothing"...

So, take your time and please answer these question's, even write (or Print) them to ponder, and answer the best you can, please feel free to elaborate wherever you deem necessary, so we can get a feel of where to focus from here...

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[pierre]

Cam I answered all the questions earlier today but apparently after all that work they weren't posted. I will try to get back to you tomorrow. Thanks, Pierre

[pierre]

1) Is there a me at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The "me" is not an actual reality. It only appeared to consciousness and an demanded attention. It was a magic trick that sought focus and attention and formed a personality that was identified with. My entire history was based on this illusion and couldnt have existed without constant support and focus ..... driven by belief in the IDEA that I existed. . And it is an IDEA, a thought, a believed and uninvestigated thought, that perpetuates the illusion through constant agreement and focus. There never was a me.

2) Explain in detail where the illusion of of a seperate self is, when it starts and how it works?

The illusion is centralized in the mind and thought that is personalized and believed. There is a continual cycle of self association to everything experienced. The belief is that I am the experiencer of experiences rather than the context or background in which everything is experienced. This illusion continues on and on because it is never questioned and is given constant energy and focus. The assumption is validated by the mind because the mind is assumed to be the core of personhood....what I think is what I am. When it is questioned and all focus and value are let go of, this "supposed self" is seen through.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Totally liberating. All sense of personalization is seen through along with "my problems". Total relief from the exhausting cycle of control, change, mental seeking etc.. The weight of self existence was dropped and no support or upkeep is neccessary. Everything that appears ... just appears, without concern for its relationship to a a ME. Nothing to protect, defend, build up, perfect, etc.. Just an underlying peace and silent rest with whatever life brings.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this?

Do you expend a great deal of energy and effort to protect, defend and build up the self that you think you are? Are you tired enough of this belief to finally investigate whether this belief in the very existence of a self is true or actually just assumed? What would life be like without the burden of trying to control and change life... and what if life was allowed to flow without any sense of self concern?

5) What was the last little bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I was so frustrated and exhausted from the constant seeking and searching. Looking for my self was the last straw and wore me out. I finally honored the exhaustion and let go of all and any effort to fix, control, change.....and figure things out. I relaxed all focus on anything. I reached a place where I didnt give a shit what happened to "me". What a relief to no longer look for a better state, to no longer follow thoughts, ideas, and beliefs and to step out of the entire game of illusions. You could say that I finally gave myself permission to let go of whatever was percieved, particularly the idea of a self. Everything is different now. Thanks for all your help!