Help

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:41 pm

I feel the thoughts are getting more in intensity and it's getting torturous.
It is only natural for the mind to search for answers to questions I have been posing. But, as you know, the answer cannot be reached in that way. Its not a problem you can use deduction or logic on. So yes, the thoughts will be going round and round, and as no answer is forthcoming, they will keep going round and round.


So, keep looking. Use these thoughts to look.

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:39 am

Hi Neeeel, I'm back from the retreat...there was a lot of frustration there as I was constantly trying to find this elusive 'I'? Though there were relentless thoughts around it giving an answer of all sorts...I kept noticing them and trying to see if I was doing them.....then I realised that even though I could not find an I in the thought so easily I clearly felt that the 'I' that I think I am is a witness to all these thoughts and sensations. I couldn't shake that feeling and I have now come to this conclusion that this I is more of a feeling than a thought and it's very deeply embedded. Can't help this feeling and I dont want to think my way out of it as that would be pointless anyway....how do I see through this illusion even though it doesn't seem to be an illusion to me at present...thanks
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:49 pm

Hi Neeeel, I'm back from the retreat...there was a lot of frustration there as I was constantly trying to find this elusive 'I'? Though there were relentless thoughts around it giving an answer of all sorts...I kept noticing them and trying to see if I was doing them.....
And were you doing them? Or was the mind searching and grasping for an answer, and feelings of frustration occuring when no answer could be found?

then I realised that even though I could not find an I in the thought so easily I clearly felt that the 'I' that I think I am is a witness to all these thoughts and sensations. I couldn't shake that feeling and I have now come to this conclusion that this I is more of a feeling than a thought and it's very deeply embedded. Can't help this feeling and I dont want to think my way out of it as that would be pointless anyway....how do I see through this illusion even though it doesn't seem to be an illusion to me at present...thanks
By looking. Yes, it appears that "you" are a witness, many people feel that, but is it true?

Take a bell or some resonant object, close your eyes, and strike it with something. In that sound, is there a sound and a hearer? Thoughts will arise claiming "I heard that" or whatever, but were not interested in those, they are after the fact. In that moment is there an experience and an experiencer?

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:10 pm

To further look at the witness.

Is the sense of witness always there? Or only when you think about it?

Is the thought "I witness this" not just another thought? Is it different, more special, than any other thought that rises and falls away?

Is this sense of being the witness, not also an experience? And if so, who or what is sensing this experience? If this sense of being the witness is you, then who or what is sensing the sense of being the witness? ( if that makes any sense lol). So in other words, is the sense of being the witness any different from any other thought, emotion or sensation that arises?

Do only thoughts and perceptions exist in direct experience? Is the witness present in direct experience? Or is it an afterthought, an after-feeling?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:01 pm

What I mean by the sense of witness is the baseline of all experience. Something is there that witnesses or experiences it all isn't there? Whatever the content is is irrelevant, but something is experiencing everything or experience experiencing itself....
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:12 pm

What I mean by the sense of witness is the baseline of all experience. Something is there that witnesses or experiences it all isn't there? Whatever the content is is irrelevant, but something is experiencing everything or experience experiencing itself....
Again, is there an experience + an experiencer? You are assuming that there has to be. Is there a some THING that is experiencing everything? If so, what is that thing, can you describe it? Where is it?

Do the experiment with sounds. In the experience of hearing the sound, is there an experiencer?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:15 pm

You're right! It's all content. The experiencer is just part of the story. There is only thoughts, sensations (through the 5 senses), emotions (which are a mixture of physical sensations and thoughts). The rest is only a story which is like a picture in thoughts like a reflection(image, words) is in a soap bubble (thoughts). THAT'S IT! Thats all there it to it. Any 'I' is part of the soap bubble reflection! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:58 pm

You're right! It's all content. The experiencer is just part of the story. There is only thoughts, sensations (through the 5 senses), emotions (which are a mixture of physical sensations and thoughts). The rest is only a story which is like a picture in thoughts like a reflection(image, words) is in a soap bubble (thoughts). THAT'S IT! Thats all there it to it. Any 'I' is part of the soap bubble reflection! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Heh, sounds like you got the cosmic joke.

So, what about actions, decisions? Are you doing any of them? How do they happen? Why does it seem like "I" choose?

Is there an I, a self, in any way, shape or form?

How does it feel to see this?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:44 pm

Action, decisions are happening and part of the story says that 'I' did them, but of course it's quite clear that any of this is a reflection in the soap bubble.
Yes, of course there is an 'I' as part of the story only not in any actual real sense at all. This 'I' will probably continue just like the latest Spiderman movie just released last week, and even though most adults know that he does not exist will still like the sensational viewing of his story in the film.

It feels not much different as thoughts and even uncomfortable sensations are still there and yet that's it! Does it get any different ever?
Thank you for all your help
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:23 pm

Action, decisions are happening and part of the story says that 'I' did them, but of course it's quite clear that any of this is a reflection in the soap bubble.
Yes, of course there is an 'I' as part of the story only not in any actual real sense at all. This 'I' will probably continue just like the latest Spiderman movie just released last week, and even though most adults know that he does not exist will still like the sensational viewing of his story in the film.
How did the story of "I" start? what maintains the story?

It feels not much different as thoughts and even uncomfortable sensations are still there and yet that's it! Does it get any different ever?
Thank you for all your help
This isnt a magic wand that erases uncomfortable thoughts and sensations.
Thoughts are still there, are you thinking them? Do you believe the thoughts? Thoughts of "I am useless" or "I must do X" or "He was so rude to me", if they are just reflections in the soap bubble, are they relevant or meaningful? Or are they just reflections passing? The thoughts exist. Does the content of the thoughts point to anything real? Pop the bubble.

Uncomfortable sensations are there. Are they anything other than sensations? At any moment, as you say there are only the 5 senses, and thought. Everything else is a story, a reflection.


I was pretty underwhelmed too when I first saw through it, my first response was "Ok, what now".
Let it settle in for a few days, keep looking at everything, keep observing thoughts, sights, sounds, emotions.

this is just the start, if you want it to be. You have seen through 1 core belief. Theres a whole load of conditioning ,habits and beliefs still there, waiting to be seen, and dealt with. Cos thats what your thoughts and feelings are, just conditioned responses to stimuli. That is (hopefully) what you have seen through this process.

A couple more questions for you

What was it that pushed you over, what made you see it?

How would you describe this to someone, who had never heard about it?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:36 pm

Was breaking my head over how the hell should I look, and misunderstood it for contemplating it through thought and contemplation...then I read a thread in the Gateless Gatecrashers and Elena was explaining to someone to look directly and not to analyse. She mentioned Spiderman and how imagining him involved seeing an image with the red and blue suit which is of course very real but the actual character of Spiderman isn't. This led me to actually simply look at what actually was real and what was merely imagination. Then it dawned that of course the 'I' is merely the imagination part of it and the thought about the I is the only real thing. Thoughts are real and happening, not the content of it.

To someone who has never heard about it I would suggest the same thing I guess. Look for what is actual and what is imaginary...don't analyse and understand what it is to see the difference between content and the container
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:49 pm

Ok report back in a day or two if you like, let me know whats happening.

Theres also a facebook group for further help and support in the period after seeing this, if you are interested? Even if you have no interest in Facebook as a social thing, its still a useful tool to have.

I am also happy to talk things over with you if you need, or any other support you need at any time

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:57 pm

Yes, sure. Will do. Yes, you can give me the FB group

And once again....thanks for the Help. Bless you and lots of love
I know that I don't know

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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:24 pm

Hey. to be sure that I havent missed anything out, and that you have seen it clearly, we usually get other guides to look over the thread and give their opinion. To help with this it would be useful if you could answer the following questions again. I know you have answered some of them already, but try and give as full answers as possible, as much as you can write

1) Is there a self in any way , shape, or form?

2) How did the story of "I" start? what maintains the story?

3)How does it feel to see this.

4) How would you explain this to someone who had never heard about it?

thanks

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:18 am

1) There is as much a self as there is a story or a character on a dream. If self is an autonomous individual who has independent qualities which distinguishes himself from the rest of the environment and other selves, then this is the illusion. If the grammatical word I,me,myself, my own, our etc. is used with an actual implication of truth behind it then that is the illusion. These words however will inevitably be used as part of the functioning of this body, but that's about it!

2) Story of I obviously started with just that: 'the story' this sory was fed since childhood along with the other imaginary stories like ghosts, vampires, zombies, Santa Claus, Superman, rebirth of myself and even God as an ever kind loving protector? This story was reinforced as true through others believing in it so strongly and the entire society giving it near top value along with its branches. Can still see this operating, but only as a chatter in the background.

3) it feels quite the same to be honest except a little less bothered with things and since that day I feel a little less inclined to visualise the consequences of events or planning the long term future except practically. However it's too soon to say anything. Could it be a phase?

4) I would just say that there are thoughts and that there are contents of thoughts. All this seeking trying to find an answer, finding salvation is part of the content, but to focus where this content is in or rather what is the container that has this story of 'me' and that whether all this choosing is an actuality done by this character in the story or part of the story. I would invite the person to just notice what is it that is imaginary and what is really happening in the moment and see if there is any distinction between the two. Then of course the suggestion that this 'I' is also imaginary could be put in and ask them to verify this by seeing which category this 'I' falls under
I know that I don't know


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