what is going on

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:07 pm

Could you describe now illusion of self and its relation with what is real?

How seeing through this illusion makes a difference in life's experience?

:)

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:19 pm

Hi Eloratea
The self is a concept which points to nothing. Before seeing this truth, consciousness (this presence knowing) identifies with a self, which is a collection of stories, memories, images, worries, wishes, feelings, sensations, … Actions and reactions, all what is going on, is done through the “self”, the conditionings. When it is seen that the self does not exist, when the self is seen as this collection of stories, consciousness recognizes itself as what it is : this cannot be expressed by words.
Seeing through the illusion does not make any difference in life’s experience: presence IS at the first place before recognizing itself, presence IS after recognizing itself. Presence is unavoidable in both cases. You cannot say “I am absent”. Presence is obvious. What is here now is IT. It cannot be otherwise. Bird singing, children voices, noise of an engine, typing these words, the screen, thoughts arising about nothing special, ordinary life, …
Best wishes, nour

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vinceschubert
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Re: what is going on

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:48 am

consciousness recognizes itself as what it is - presence IS - Presence is obvious. - It cannot be otherwise.
Nour, these words don't seem (to me) to be yours (Nisargadatta ?)
Can you tell me the experiencing of recognising "Consciousness", "Presence"?
Explain how it cannot be otherwise, without getting onto a story. How in your experiencing, you 'Know' that it can't be otherwise. (no deduction or other thought constructs)
Is it possible that you are constructing a story to explain the bits that don't meet your expectations ?

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:16 pm

Hi vincent

No, these words are not said by Nisargadatta. They are seen by this consciousness as they were written on the screen. Now how can I tell you about this presence ? Are you present, are you conscious, if not, which is reading these words right now?
How it cannot be otherwise? If you have really seen that "you" don't exist, you will never ask such a question, because it is obvious. « What is looking at this screen right now » cannot be other than THAT. What else can it be? It is clear like rock water.
For what purpose I will construct a story, is there a game here in the forum, is there a winning lotery here in this forum. I don't understand your worries about stories or not stories, about what is here or is not here, about experiences.
In the first post I have written in this forum, I put the hypothesis about "seeing no self" which is a sort of a glimpse of the true nature, and "realization" which is a complete living as THAT, as consciousness, as awareness, as What IS. You say, in this forum, life is life - ing. I don't see life life -ing, i see only perceptions of sight, of hearing, of smelling, of tasting, of touching. I know these bodily sensations, the feelings, the thoughts. What is knowing all that ? It is not a me which is a concept with no substance, it is not Nour which a concept pointing to a collection of stories, and worries and expectations. What is knowing all that is knowing itself as THAT. What is knowing all that is here now. What is knowing all that is knowing all that even it is seen or it is not seen. It is obvious. How can you miss it ? Even if you try to avoid this knowing, you fall again in that knowing.
Warm regards, nour

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vinceschubert
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Re: what is going on

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:24 pm

Thank you for that Nour.
What was the last bit that tipped you over, that triggered the 'seeing' ?
How does it feel to be liberated ?

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:35 am

You are welcome Vince
I had already given the answers to your questions in the first page of this thread. I said there is no difference between before and after seeing the truth of no self. Consciousness identifies itself naturally to whatever it is. Before seeing truth, it identifies itself with a body, with thoughts, with feelings, ... And there is a core belief that it is IT and there is no opportunity to dis identify because IT does not recognize itself. Example : IT identifies with a car when you drive but there is physical separation when you get down from the car, then there is dis identification from the car. But there is still identification with the body.
After seeing the truth of no self, consciousness knows itself as what IT is. IT knows without a doubt that IT is not the body, not a thought, not a sensation, not a feeling, not a car, not an object but even this undoubtedly knowing exists, there is still identification with a body, a sensation, a feeling : the difference is that IT sees clearly the identification and there is a process of dis identification which is taking place.

I wish I have expressed things clearly, best wishes for you, nour.

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Eloratea
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Re: what is going on

Postby Eloratea » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:11 am

Hello Nour,
I tried yesterday to send you pm, but for some reasons it hasn't passed.

Process of confirmation is still going on. Let me know if anything new comes up in the meantime.
The next step might me to keep looking for (un)substantiality of IT, presence, or however it is called. If it is anything solid and permanent in experience? If there is some kind of imaginary "me" hiding?

Keep in touch,
El

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warissem
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Re: what is going on

Postby warissem » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:18 pm

Hi Eloratea
The presence or whatever it is called, is permanent. It is here now. The stories of a moment ago, of yesterday, of a month ago, … all the stuff which is drown from memory is known here now. This presence does not need a label, it is the first, it knows all experience. Where can a “me” hide if not as a thought. There is now, all perceptions (visual, heard, …) of the five senses and sensations and thoughts. Where can a “me” hide : as a perception, no; as a sensation, no; as a thought, yes but this thought or concept does not point to nothing.

Warm regards, nour


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