Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

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xyzzy
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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Sat May 26, 2012 6:15 am

Write how it is going with feelings and thoughts throughout you day experiences.
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking me to do here. I worked all day today, and nothing unusual happened.

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Eloratea
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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Sat May 26, 2012 9:03 am

Ok, I didn't mean that anything unusual will happen, just look at the mechanism of thoughts and feelings and especially those that feel unpleasant and connected with „me“.
If everything is fine, than fine :)

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue May 29, 2012 6:07 am

I work a lot on certain days of the week (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday), and so I tend to be too busy to notice much of anything then.

Several days ago I was noticing that there seemed to be a shift in the way I was experiencing unpleasant feelings regarding my life. So, I've been watching to see what was going to happen with this. Except, what's happening is that now watching for this is just causing feelings of tension as I expect something to happen, I suppose. So, whatever was being watched for won't happen.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Tue May 29, 2012 7:51 am

Yes. No need for expectations, just look as things unfold.

Could you describe what is illusion of separate self and how it starts and manifests in life?

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue May 29, 2012 9:13 am

Could you describe what is illusion of separate self and how it starts and manifests in life?
It is the belief and feeling that there is an invisible something at the center of everything which controls the body and the thoughts and which is the source of awareness. I don't know how it starts. I also wouldn't really be able to say how it manifests in life since I don't know what the absence of the illusion would be like. While I can see that it is an illusion, I still experience the illusion. Seeing that it's an illusion doesn't make it go away. It doesn't change the way the illusion is experienced, other than briefly during times when I am thinking about it, and even then the only difference is probably intellectual.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Tue May 29, 2012 9:34 am

Was there some remarkable, even it might have been subtle, change first time you've seen it?

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue May 29, 2012 10:11 am

Was there some remarkable, even it might have been subtle, change first time you've seen it?
No.

Maybe this is because many of the implications of this are things which I already knew or suspected. I had known for a long time that all things are ok, that it isn't possible for anything to be wrong, or for there to be a situation where something "should" be different than it is. I thought it was highly likely that there was no such thing as free will, that I didn't actually control my thoughts or actions. I was a terrible failure anyway at controlling my life and making it how I'd want it to be, so the idea that there was no I controlling it didn't bother me.

When I first heard people talking about the idea that there was no self, my attitude was that I didn't care whether I had a self (or was a self) or not. I was fine with it either way.

Or maybe it's possible to experience there being no self in some way which I haven't yet, I don't know.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Tue May 29, 2012 12:01 pm

Ok. Life is like complex number having real and imaginary part, and seeing it doesn't make imaginary component disappear.
But for most people seeing the difference makes difference in their lives.
I guess it depends on how strong their belief in separate self was in the first place and how much their experience was influenced by that imaginary part.
From there on it depends on different conditionings and inspiration to explore life on the basis of having no substantial self.
It is like having possibility to step always into some clear, neutral place, which actually powers the life and leads the experience.
Are there some beliefs and expectations that might stand in a way now to experience more deeply that there is no you in charge, no gap between you and life?

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue May 29, 2012 7:46 pm

Are there some beliefs and expectations that might stand in a way now to experience more deeply that there is no you in charge, no gap between you and life?
I've been thinking about this, and the answer is.... I don't know. I don't know what it would be like to experience that there is no me in charge, no gap between me and life. I could go read through some of the other threads in these forums and probably read about experiences other people were having that I'm not, but I'm not sure that would help.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Tue May 29, 2012 8:20 pm

Right now is there gap between you and life?

If haven't so far actually might be ok to read some treads here.

Regards.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue May 29, 2012 8:45 pm

Right now is there gap between you and life?

If haven't so far actually might be ok to read some treads here.

Regards.
There is no gap between me and life, but it feels like there is. It feels like there's an I which is disconnected from most everything. The thoughts and feelings feel like mine, but nothing else.

And, I have read a bunch of threads here, actually, although I don't recall the details of what people in them were saying. I was mostly paying attention to the questions which were being asked.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Wed May 30, 2012 8:10 am

It seems to that you still haven't really deeply looked into your experience to see what is really there.
Can you do that now? It is simple, but require readiness and honesty.

Can you look for that feeling of „I“? What lies behind, what it hides? Can it do anything?

Thoughts and feelings are part of „your“ actual experience, but do they belong to someone?
Don’t answer from intellectual knowing, which actually isn’t knowing, just the reproduction of information.
Look as if you have never heard about self/no-self thing. And see how that feeling of a gap between you and rest of the life comes into being? How it manifests in your experience.
Spend some time in this inquire.

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xyzzy
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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed May 30, 2012 7:12 pm

Can you look for that feeling of „I“? What lies behind, what it hides? Can it do anything?
I guess I can't really find a feeling of "I", it's more of a knowing. Somehow I know that I am at the center of everything, surrounded by stuff that isn't me. Trying to look at this doesn't seem to get me anywhere, though. I'm not sure that I know how to look at it. The question "what lies behind it" doesn't seem to make any sense. And, of course the feeling of "I" can't do anything.
And see how that feeling of a gap between you and rest of the life comes into being?
When I try to look at this, I don't know what a gap between me and the rest of life means. There seems to be a gap between me and everything in the world around me, though. Me is at the center of everything, the walls and furniture and such are not me.

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby Eloratea » Wed May 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Can you look for that feeling of „I“? What lies behind, what it hides? Can it do anything?

I guess I can't really find a feeling of "I", it's more of a knowing. Somehow I know that I am at the center of everything, surrounded by stuff that isn't me. Trying to look at this doesn't seem to get me anywhere, though. I'm not sure that I know how to look at it. The question "what lies behind it" doesn't seem to make any sense. And, of course the feeling of "I" can't do anything.
Hm, something doesn't fit here. If it can't do anything and nothing is behind, why bother about it anyway?

Looking at the feeling means paying attention on it and see what happens. Simple acceptance of it without resistance, expectations and thought stories. Sooner or later it dissolves or/and give you the message... Everything here and now is with reason.
When I try to look at this, I don't know what a gap between me and the rest of life means. There seems to be a gap between me and everything in the world around me, though. Me is at the center of everything, the walls and furniture and such are not me.
Can you feel the exact place of the border between you and the rest?

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Re: Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu May 31, 2012 5:58 am

Hm, something doesn't fit here. If it can't do anything and nothing is behind, why bother about it anyway?
I'm not bothered by the experience of there being a "me". This website puts forward the idea that being without this experience is liberating in some way, so I'm curious as to whether it's possible to have more than an intellectual understanding of this. There also are things that I am bothered by (which I mentioned before, the fact that life is not good or enjoyable), and I wonder if this is somehow related to any of this.
Can you feel the exact place of the border between you and the rest?
No. It feels as if I'm behind my eyes somewhere, but there's no way of knowing what size or shape this "I' is, just that it's inside my head. There's not really anything there, all there is is a feeling or a knowing that something is there. I think "knowing" is a better word than feeling or belief, since I don't actually feel it and I don't believe it.


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