Clearer seeing

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faraner
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Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:09 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It means to see clearly enough to get that the thought based stories about my Yegor character (or rather a Yegor character) is fiction.
It is a state when thoughts about Yegor's future are not associated with anything. And when these thoughts become pervasive, the feeling of repulsion appears and correction happens as if by itself.

What are you looking for at LU?
Today, I have experienced the state described in previous answer for the first time. My thoughts about future weren't associated with anything or anybody. When these thoughts become pervasive, the feeling of repulsion appears and correction happens as if by itself. As I walked in a park I also perceived the feeling of slight repulsion when I was looking on most adults surrounding me, but not when I was looking on children or animals.
I don't have any doubts that Yegor is just a fiction and that self is just a fiction. I see clear enough to understand that perceived thoughts and the whole mental structure is bullshit. But I don't see clear enough to see through this perceived mental structure. I want too see through it.
I also want to investigate this feeling of repulsion I described.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to get pointers that would help me to look at my thoughts and to see my mental space with better clarity. I expect to have to look, to investigate, to reflect on the question and to write my thoughts down.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I meditated regularly for several months about a year and a half ago. I've been reading and rereading Jed McKenna books for the last 9 months and using the writing process to look at the nature of reality.
I've been reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book for the last week. I've been answering each question in the book for myself and writing it down the answer before moving forward. I have read about a half of it before having the experience that sounds like the realization Ilona and Elena guided their students toward.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:17 am

Hi Yegor and welcome to the forum.
I'm Luchana and I can walk with you here and see where it takes you if that's ok?

Thanks for waiting so long.

Reading your intro I see that you've done a very good work so far.
Before we continue with the investigation please look at the following questions

Tell me, what are you really looking for precisely?
How your life is going to change when you find this?
What do you wish to change and what do you wish to stay the same?



Much love
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:24 am

Hi Yegor and welcome to the forum.
I'm Luchana and I can walk with you here and see where it takes you if that's ok?

Thanks for waiting so long.

Reading your intro I see that you've done a very good work so far.
Before we continue with the investigation please look at the following questions

Tell me, what are you really looking for precisely?
How your life is going to change when you find this?
What do you wish to change and what do you wish to stay the same?



Much love
Luchana
Hi, Luchana.
Thank you a lot for speaking to me.

I am looking for some other mode of living. A mode of living that doesn't circle so much around my story, my wishes and expectations.

I expect my life to become easier to parse, because I won't apply a bunch of expectations, fears and believes to every image I percieve.

There's no saying what my character Yegor is, and I wish to get somehow separated from this character and it's conceptualized relation to reality. I expect that there will be more ease as a result.

There are fears about financial security and lifestyle. Most specifics come down to some plans for the next two months I wouldn't want to see disturbed. In a long term, I just don't want my life to become hardship.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:48 am

Hi Yegor,

Thanks for answering the questions regarding expectatons. It’s important to look at your expectation , because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss the obvious because is expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.
From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.
Many of us have the impression that seeing through the illusion of a separate self will come with some special pop and will be accompainied with such a qualities like peace, calmness, relax and no painful emotions... But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.

Our main goal with this investigation is that you see experientially (not only on the intellectual level) that the I, me, Yegor do not exist as a separate entity in reality at all. All our efforts will be in this direction. Here (in the forum) you are not going to find "happily ever after” or seeing no self is not going to give you some super power. It is just the simple fact that there is no I, me, self here to be found; no I, me, self will be found, because none on these have ever existed.

I expect my life to become easier to parse, because I won't apply a bunch of expectations, fears and believes to every image I percieve.
There is no you even now and still expectations, fears and believes to every image are happening.
Why this should change? Just because the self is seen to be an illusion?
It may decrease ,yes, but how much and when - no one knows.

There's no saying what my character Yegor is, and I wish to get somehow separated from this character and it's conceptualized relation to reality. I expect that there will be more ease as a result.
Good :-) "more ease as a result" may or may not happen. No one can say in advance, for each one is different. We all want to live in peace and ease and with very less painful emotions - that’s natural for us as human beings.
But old traumas, hidden wounds, existential crisis are not going to disappear with a magic stick, just because the self is seen through. Еmotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of further looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of this lifetime. Seeing no - self is the first step, just the begining. And the personality stays almost intact.
There are fears about financial security and lifestyle. Most specifics come down to some plans for the next two months I wouldn't want to see disturbed. In a long term, I just don't want my life to become hardship.
What if there are sensations and feelings, but they are not yours?

What if plans are happening, but it is not you who makes them?

What if freedom is not from, but WITH?

Please read my comments several times and see your expecrations from a different perspective.

Is there a resistance to any of it?

In short - the self cannot imagine what would be without a self...it can only imagine what it want for itself.

So It will be better to leave all the expectations aside and dive into this inquiry completly fresh.

Much love
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:36 pm

Hi Luchana.

Thank you for these pointers.
I will have to access LU forum from my phone during the next week. I hope that my posts will be coherent enough.
What if there are sensations and feelings, but they are not yours?
What if plans are happening, but it is not you who makes them?
I am quite comfortable with both of those statements. I get them conceptually and there is little to no resistance comes up.
But I think there is an expectation that those facts may have greater impact within my experience were I to assume by default that nothing is mine and I control nothing.
There is no you even now and still expectations, fears and believes to every image are happening.
Why this should change? Just because the self is seen to be an illusion?
It may decrease ,yes, but how much and when - no one knows.
There is no me, but there is the idea of I which binds the conceptual reality together.
Everything within the field of experience relates to an I since the I is assumed to own every experience.
I see experiencing structure as a topology within a multidimensional system where every experience, every image has its own coordinates. And I is the zero coordinate of this system, so all dimensions begin with the I.

You asked why should anything change were I to see that there is no I and that the whole experiencing structure does not really have the zero coordinate. I guess that nothing should change. The experiencing structure is still there. And this structure already knows were to place new experiences, since it knows where the zero coordinate of an I should be.
It bugs me though, that even if there is understanding that there is no I, the whole structure still works like a clock and everything that happens assumes the existence of an I and falls into place.

There is also an idea that if this expiriencing structure can be shaken while the idea of an I is seen to be a lie, then the whole structure might begin to drift and to fall apart.
That is where fear comes in, because my plans, and my life and my lifestyle are parts of this expiriencing structure. And if the structure comes apart so will do everything else.
At the same time there is a desire to get rid of experiencing structure or at least to simplify it a lot.
What if freedom is not from, but WITH?
Freedom with what? Experience? The experience seems to be limited. There is no expirience proving the existence of control, of free will, or of anything else. So I am not sure how does the concept of freedom fits here.
I can see that absolutely any expirience is ultimately okay. There is nothing wrong with any expirience. It is kind of liberating image.
But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
Yeah, I guess there also is an expectation that my baseline should change. Like if now I is my baseline, then at some point I hope to make no-self to be the baseline.

That is how I see my expectations at the moment. I will do my best to set them aside, but it doesn't seem easy at all, I've been stuck with those expectations for awhile. So I guess there is also resistance there.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:28 pm

Hi Yegor,
That is where fear comes in, because my plans, and my life and my lifestyle are parts of this experiencing structure. And if the structure comes apart so will do everything else.

Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. Now, let's take a closer look at this.
Sit somewhere quietly and notice that you are in a secure environment- no real danger is there.

Look at fear and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.
So, respect it and say "Thank you, fear for protecting me". Then look what is behind fear.

What I’d like you to do now is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Look very closely. This fear suggests something. It tells a story.
What is this fear about?

Much love to you,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:43 am

Hi Egor, I'm not sure you receive this so I'm posting it here aswell.



How is the looking going on?

How does it feel?


You can write me anytime whatever is showing up.
How about a second meeting during the upcoming week - Thuesday, Wednesday? same time?

Meanwhile here is something to explore

Go for a walk somewhere in nature. A small park nearby is a good option
also. Walk for a while, sit somewhere and look arround. Trees, flowers,
insects, birds, people's chatters, children's playing, sensations in the
body, thoughts including the thought of I, John am sitting, looking and
observing- all this is just one happening. Look at what is present and
answer these questions:

Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a
walk or not?

Does the character choose this story?

Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?

Can the story of Egor be seen as what it is - just a story, including Egor?


Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:49 am

Hi, Luchana.
I'm sorry for the delay with my answers. My last week was kind of exhausting.
How is the looking going on?
It goes on. I feel tired, and I think that it muddles it a bit in terms of looking, but looking is there sometimes.
Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a walk or not?
Does the character choose this story?
Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?
The character can't choose another story, can not decide to go or not to go for a walk, and can't change anything about what is.
Can the story of Egor be seen as what it is - just a story, including Egor?
Yes, sure. Egor is the story of Egor there is nothing else to it.
How does it feel?
It feels good. Some reservations appeared while I was typing previous answers, but they are just the contents of thoughts.
Contents of thoughts bother me less now. Thank you so much for your help with this.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:31 am

Hi Egor.

you did a very good looking.
Some reservations appeared while I was typing previous answers, but they are just the contents of thoughts.
Contents of thoughts bother me less now.
Is there an expectations that story will stop playing out?
Is there an expectations that thoughts (with various content) will stop appearing?
Why would they?
Just because the self is seen to be just an idea...

And who or what precisely can be less bother with the content of thoughts?
Thank you so much for your help with this.
You are most welcome.

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:25 pm

Hi, Luchana.
Is there an expectation that story will stop playing out?
There is an expectation that the story will stop with Egor’s death. Other than that, there is no reason for the story to stop.
Is there an expectation that thoughts (with various content) will stop appearing?
No, there is no such expectation.
Why would they?
I suppose that thoughts might have just stopped appearing, but there is no expectation for this to happen. As long as thoughts are they will be.
And who or what precisely can be less bother with the content of thoughts?
Yeah, sure, no one. There is the idea that there is less bother now.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:07 pm

Hi Egor,
There is an expectation that the story will stop with Egor’s death. Other than that, there is no reason for the story to stop.
IS there a director of the story of Egor?

What about Egor?

Is Egor part of this story (happening) as well?

Can the character in this happening (the story) chooses the story?

Can Batman decide to be Darth Vader for example?


Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:25 pm

Hi Luchana,
Is there a director of the story of Egor?
No, no director. Within the experience, there is no place for the director to be. And there is nothing to speak of outside of the experience.
What about Egor?
Is Egor part of this story (happening) as well?
Egor is a character within a story, a label. Egor doesn't direct the story, he is just a part present within the story.
Can the character in this happening (the story) chooses the story?
No.
Can Batman decide to be Darth Vader for example?
Characters don't decide anything about the story they are part of.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:32 am

Hi Egor,

you dd a good looking.

Here is something to investigate:

In the morning when you woke up stay for 5 min in the bed, than leave it.

Look thorough. Be very alert.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?
Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?
Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘you’ command the body?
Does a thought command the body?

During the day investigate also simple daily activities - like what to dress, what to eat, drink and so on. ..?

Is there a place where the commands come from?
Who ot what gives them?
Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?
Can a source be found?

Dig deep.
Reply each question indivudualy.

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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faraner
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby faraner » Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:00 pm

Hi, Luchana!

Thank you for the questions.
Looking doesn't come too often since our last video chat, but it does.
Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
No. There is no self outside of thoughts.
Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?
The decision just happens. It comes from nowhere.
Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?
No. There are no commands given, and getting up just happens.
Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?
There is no controller within the experience.
What makes the body get up?
The body gets up independent of anything else. Nothing makes it do anything.
Does a ‘you’ command the body?
No. The "me" exists only within the contents of thoughts.
Does a thought command the body?
No, thoughts happen in parallel and may or may not have anything to do with the actions of the body.
Is there a place where the commands come from?
No, there are no commands.
Who ot what gives them?
There is no commander within the experience.
Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?
No. The decision just happens. It wasn't made at any point.
Can a source be found?
There is no source within the experience.

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Luchana
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Re: Clearer seeing

Postby Luchana » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:55 am

Hi Egor.

you did an exellent looking.
Looking doesn't come too often since our last video chat, but it does.

Can you share what happens in your everyday life when you are not looking and not thinking about the inquiry, but just living the everyday life, does it feel like that I am thinking, I am choosing, I am deciding, I am feeling emotions and sensations?

Take your time

Much love
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.


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