Ilona, are you available?

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Ilona
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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Ilona » Tue May 22, 2012 7:25 pm

Thank you Brian, this post was very touching to read. I laughed with you at this ludicrous idea and how we get to believe it. And taking awareness for a walk to the park sounds like a great plan. Only who's there to do such an act, hahaha
Yes, you looking right at it. This seeing is what I was pointing you to and I'm so pleased to hear that the magic container has gone. And yes it takes time for the jello to melt away, but without container it's the only possibility, it's already melting and loosing shape and substance.

:)
Let's look a little bit more:
In the seeing there is only seen
In the hearing there is only heard
In the cognising there is only cognised

Can you see that?
Can you see that there is no experiencer in experiencing?

Write what comes up
Looking forward to your answer.

Sending lots of love. :))
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Brian
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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Brian » Thu May 24, 2012 6:32 pm

Hi Ilona,

I'm going to use I because it's easy, but I don't mean a personal I. I don't have a sense that "I'm life living itself" or anything like that. In fact I don't have a clue what I am, and right now that's fine, I'm not even interested. Just that whatever it is, I've been being it for a long time - it's something familiar. I do however know very clearly now, what I am not - and that is any kind of a personal I or me or self.

The experience of this has been different since the seeing "I" had writing previous post to you. Yes, I see that this is what you've been pointing "me' to for the past couple of weeks. Thoughts, feelings still occurring of course, but doubt gone. There is no me-period. It cannot be unseen, unknown. I'm still in the "Good God, how could "I" ever have believed that - it's so illogical" phase.

Just to reiterate, the chief difference I notice is still that things don't bother me like they did. It's as if the upsets of life, all still there exactly the way they were before, only bother me 50% to 75% as much as before. And even if, rarely, something seems to cut to the bone, it's gone so quickly. This change has been present even during the past 10 days or so when "I" seemed to be so stuck in doubts and disappointment feelings. Even my wife has noticed a change! Good Lord!


You asked
In the seeing there is only seen
In the hearing there is only heard
In the cognising there is only cognised

Can you see that?
Can you see that there is no experiencer in experiencing?

I've been looking at this the past couple of days, though I hadn't really before. What I notice is seeing, hearing, cognising stimulate thoughts, feelings, judgments, opinions, that often have an I attached, but they are not experienced "personally" as before. I mean as I look out the window writing this, I don't get "Wow there's just seeing, no seer" - there are thoughts and feelings with the seeing, I guess, containing a "seer", but they're just there, part of the melting jello, there's no "I'm that" identification with them. In fact, there's the understanding "no one is seeing this" when I look to see "who" is looking. I hope this is clear. There really is no seer, hearer, cognizer here. Last night, looking in the mirror, I saw this old familiar guy, but the concept, "Oh yeah, that's me." wasn't there.

This is very new and nice and fun to notice. There are still thoughts and feelings occurring that this understanding could disappear, and "I" could slip back to the old me yada yada, but it doesn't happen. As you've been telling me, this flowers or matures or deepens, and I've just become aware of that process.

With great thanks as always,

Brian

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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Ilona » Thu May 24, 2012 11:13 pm

Dear Brian,
Sounds that the gate has been crossed and the personal me has been dropped. And yes, it is crazy to see that this has never been questioned before! I was stunned by this when I looked and saw this- how come we never question the existence of I :)
Well, it happens when it happens. It's here until it's not.

So here are some final questions for you. Take your time and answer in full when ready.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Looking forward to your answers :)
Much love to you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Brian » Mon May 28, 2012 9:27 pm

Hello Ilona!

Gate? What gate? Oh, THAT gate!

It's been a few days, but I want to just live a little more like this before I answered your questions.
Anyway, (By the way, all "I"s here are "I"s of convenience.)
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no trace of a "me" anywhere, of any sort. All the senses thereof, that were such a bother
even a few days ago, are recognized more and more quickly as bursts of conditioned thoughts/sensations
thrown into awareness by stimuli in the environment, I guess, generated by and appearing to no ONE. Just as you kept
reassuring "me" would happen. There never was a "me", and there could never be. It is simply not something
real, in the world.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It starts from the moment an infant is born, even before actually. "He's gonna be this.. She's gonna be that.." in language.
"I" is certainly useful to refer to this body etc., it's short, doesn't require those damn quotation marks, " " :-} But when
everyone everywhere believes it's an actual entity, the experiencer of their life, it's only a matter of time until
the child does too. I think it gets reenforced also by the concept of "mine" and "yours". "No, no, that's not your ball, that's his - and so forth. If the stuff of the world, including praise and punishment, is constantly being divided up into mine and other's, it must just make sense to an immature consciousness that there's an individual entity there that owns/has this
and doesn't own/have that, is lazy or smart or whatever, and isn't that. I think it could only happen to a child. You could never
convince a mature adult who somehow didn't believe they were a a personal I, that they were one. They would laugh you
out of the room.
3) How does it feel to see this?
As I've said before in these posts, (I being the label for this organism) everything that was going on is still going on. I still get mad ( I still get really mad! - teenaged daughter), and have the same opinions and preferences as before. But not as intense. The emotions come and go, they're not as deep or as long as before. There is no effort involved, and it's wonderful. Just in the past couple of weeks, there is more and more the understanding that there is a process of unwinding, loosening going on. There is less effort involved in anything, life just kind of goes along. When I think about it, which isn't often, I notice that the amount of self referential chatter going on in my "head" has diminished. Not gone, but less. The inner chatter is still always there, but it's more about life stuff, things to do and so forth.

A lot of the time I don't even remember that anything happened, I'm just engaged in what's going on. Sometimes though, there's an awareness of how nice this is in a new way. This is subtle, this is not bells and whistles, but there's a quiet, peacefulness and stability I never remember feeling before. I was always suspicious of happiness and contentment. Felt like it would be gone soon, like "I" didn't deserve it, etc. It was like even feelings of joy or peace provoked anxiety. This peacefulness feels like the basis of everything. Life occurs in it. Honestly, I would take an ordinary moment of life now over the happiest feeling I ever had before. There's just a different, and better quality to life now.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


I'd tell them: If you're interested you can do this. There is a way to look at your "self" from every angle until the inescapable conclusion is reached that it's just an idea, it isn't real and never was. Once you see it, it's over for that belief. Then your human energy and body and brain aren't being used up in the service of a lie. And life feels better and easier after. It just does. And if you have interest in this, you can do it, it's actually fascinating as you go through it, and as difficult as it can seem sometimes, it's nothing compared to the difficulty of living life as a "self" - even at its best. And then I would (and have) direct them to this website.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was a one two punch. I came to this site having already seen that "I" was not the thinker of my thoughts, assuming that "I" was the awareness observing thoughts. When I was directed to look and I saw that "I" was just a label add to, appearing in awareness, that rocked "me". So I retreated to "I" must be the I that directs attention where it needs to be - that conscious direting of attention. When I saw that thoughts directing attention, "check and see if the water's boiling." "turn left at the next light" and so forth, were also just spontaneously appearing thoughts, there was nothing else I could conceive of that "I" could actually be. At that moment the only possible conclusion was was that the "I" didn't really exist. That was it.

And you know, Ilona, the next insight I had 10 days or so later, seeing the silliness of the notion that there could be an "I". What struck me in that moment, was how far I had progressed since the initial understanding, without being aware of it at all. It was like "well of course, I know that - I've known that for a while."

I'm much more aware of the process now, there's no one running it - it's running itself - and it's nicer and nicer to watch it unfold.

Thank you Ilona for helping me, for knowing just exactly how to help me, and for knowing letting me know just what I was going through when I didn't. I hope we can continue this conversation in some way, and maybe at some point I'll be able to help others as you have helped me.

It's interesting, as the old "me" feeling and trying to convey this much loving gratitude would have actually been somewhat painful.

But them days as the old days. Now, like everything else, it's something to be done, and it's easy. It's no big thing - even though it is.

So thank you again, Ilona, for so lovingly enabling the best thing that ever happened in this life.

Brian

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Ilona
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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Ilona » Tue May 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Dear Brian,

It's great to se you made it through the gate and from your answers it's clear that you got what we are pointing here to.

The conversation can carry on in the new section of forum that is open now. You can explore what's there and when you ready please join the Facebook group. :) meet new friends.

Welcome home :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Brian
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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Brian » Wed May 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Hi Ilona,

I'm not on facebook, but I'll join up.
is that how I'll get access to the new section of the forum you mentioned?

So nice to see the name in blue! I almost scrolled past it.

Thanks always,

Brian

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Ilona
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Re: Ilona, are you available?

Postby Ilona » Wed May 30, 2012 10:49 pm

Press on board index tab, (which is black) and you will find it there. :)
Let me know when you join the Facebook. It's more lively and more imediate than this platform.

See you around.
Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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