Elizabeth available?

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:27 am

And yet the appearance is vivid enough to merit provisional or conventional existence. Not a serious or substantial existence, a playful, movie-like existence. Yes, batman does exist, as a fictional character. The mirage exists--as a PERSPECTIVE! To say it exists or that it doesn't exist are both extreme opinions.

...
2) What is a self, and how does it work? Can you see how it constructs itself in your life? Others?
A self is a real PERSPECTIVE, a real point of view, a real dream, a real mirage.
It might be impossible to see or say how it appears, how it works. If it's possible to see, it must be impossible to describe. It's like asking how does life come to be, and how does life work. On the other hand, there's an intensive, life-long, world-wide, grass-roots educational program going on, instructing and inducting one another in the belief in separate identities. In my life, and others', we feel pain and pleasure, and fearfully construct strategies around both sensations, attributing everything to self-hood.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:05 am

Let's go a little deeper here. You still have a point of view. Surprisingly, there is no point of view, at all. There are thoughts ABOUT a point of view, centered around a self. So take another step back from the thoughts of "this seeing is emanating from a me who is still here and responsible for it".
When we look at the cup, there is just looking. There is no self looking. There is looking. Looking is. Looking is not labeling. Self is all about the label. Subject-object.
Note that the fear you mentioned is self hanging on, insisting that it is not possible to exist without a bunch of self-referential thoughts. And yet in the gap between thoughts, seeing and hearing and moving around happens. All the time. Reality, seeing, hearing, is all present prior to the claimant. Life is life-ing.
The perfect exposition of this is the Bhyia sutta:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

I love these gate questions. You can't fail them, True :-) They just tell us where we are still holding, a bit confused. I'm still confused! until I'm not. Like you. Just part of the play.
Much love.

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:15 pm

Thanks. I'm going to look more deeply into your words and let them settle (or unsettle).
You seem to say that a thought is real. A "point of view" is obviously just a thought, although I think you're pointing to the fact that there's an assumed "point" in the point of view, i.e., a viewer.
Self is just a thought, yet a thought is real (as a thought). Self is a thought without a thinker, a pointless view, viewing only.

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm

Let's go a little deeper here. You still have a point of view. Surprisingly, there is no point of view, at all. There are thoughts ABOUT a point of view, centered around a self. So take another step back from the thoughts of "this seeing is emanating from a me who is still here and responsible for it".
Yes, stepping back, it is seen that the presumed seer is not a seer, but something seen. That which "steps back" is also seen, not seer. Thus it is seen that there is no point from which seeing emanates; any "point" of view is already subsumed in the view. Even an infinite or divine 'viewer' must be a thought appearing in the view; certainly 'other people' are just appearances in the view. As no viewer can ever be found, there is no one to have a point of view. And thus there are actually no points of view, no separate perspectives from which viewing happens.
When we look at the cup, there is just looking. There is no self looking. There is looking. Looking is.
Looking is all there is; there's no other possibility.
Looking is not labeling. Self is all about the label. Subject-object.
Looking obviously doesn't think limiting thoughts or fall into labeling, and thus block itself from looking. No 'self' label has ever obscured Looking. No misidentification has occurred.

Thank you, dear Elizabeth. What's left?

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:31 pm

Sorry, improving the quotation thing, and re-posting that.
Let's go a little deeper here. You still have a point of view. Surprisingly, there is no point of view, at all. There are thoughts ABOUT a point of view, centered around a self. So take another step back from the thoughts of "this seeing is emanating from a me who is still here and responsible for it".
Yes, stepping back, it is seen that the presumed seer is not a seer, but something seen. That which "steps back" is also seen, not seer. Thus it is seen that there is no point from which seeing emanates; any "point" of view is already subsumed in the view. Even an infinite or divine 'viewer' must be a thought appearing in the view; certainly 'other people' are just appearances in the view. As no viewer can ever be found, there is no one to have a point of view. And thus there are actually no points of view, no separate perspectives from which viewing happens.
When we look at the cup, there is just looking. There is no self looking. There is looking. Looking is.
Looking is all there is; there's no other possibility.
Looking is not labeling. Self is all about the label. Subject-object.
Looking obviously doesn't think limiting thoughts or fall into labeling, and thus block itself from looking. No 'self' label has ever obscured Looking. No misidentification has occurred.

Thank you, dear Elizabeth. What's left?[/quote]

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:49 pm

Lovely. So let's revisit question one. Change it a little.
Do you exist?
Much love.

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Existence alone exists.

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Elizabeth
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:34 pm

Can we know that for sure?

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:06 pm

Haha. Good trick question. Knowing alone knows.
There is no 'we' to know or not know.
Existing/Knowing doesn't have to ask itself or answer any questions.
It is already complete and total clarity, free from identity as this or that.

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:38 pm

Question number two!
How does a self put itself together? When a you gets up in the morning, what happens?
Love, Elizabeth

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 pm

The human bodymind may turn attention toward the thoughts "it's morning," and "this is me," and countless others. When repeated many times, a "belief" may appear to form.
Attention and thoughts and beliefs are merely biological events. While their source is Knowing, Knowing Itself doesn't believe anything, nor does It think, nor does It turn attention. All appearances are equally subsumed in It—It knows only Itself, without subject or object.

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:22 pm

The human bodymind may turn attention toward the thoughts "it's morning," and "this is me," and countless others. When repeated many times, a "belief" may appear to form.
Attention and thoughts and beliefs are merely biological events. While their source is Knowing, Knowing Itself doesn't believe anything, nor does It think, nor does It turn attention. All appearances are equally subsumed in It—It knows only Itself, without subject or object.
Can you simplify and give a few examples from today? As if you were talking to a young person who was curious. Had no idea what you mean by Knowing. They can't figure out why they do the things they do. It's painful, not knowing why they can't nail an identity down, a nice satisfactory one. Let alone why others are doing what they do!
This is kinda putting two questions in one, a twofer, True!
Much love. E

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:12 am

Thanks for the twofer.

Can I ask you a weird question? Did you ever notice how life is a little bit like a movie? Like you're watching the character (their name) walking through all the experiences of the day? It really is sort of like that. The main character and all the other characters, and the whole world are seen playing out their scripts on this enormous multi-dimensional display. It's not even just 3-D either—the character's thoughts, feelings, hearing, sight, smell, are all viewed there too. In fact, anything and everything that is experienced must be viewed on the screen, since after all, it's part of the movie. Even the experience or sense of "being a person", the whole "you" thing, is on the screen.

Now, the two coolest questions in the world!
1) Can the character on the screen be a real "you"? (Is Shrek real, too?)
2) Is there a "you" who is watching the movie? Remember, all possible "you" stuff is on the screen. It is seen, it is not the seer.

Now look at all of this, for a while, and then tell me if you see what I see. There is no 'you' in what is seen, because it's 'out there' and you can't be a thing somewhere else; and there is no 'you' doing the seeing, because everything about a 'you' is, again, a thing on the screen.

What I get when I play with these questions is an amazing amount of energy and happiness. Because there is nobody who has to spend effort worrying about "being someone". The seen/scene is liberated, and the seeing is liberated.

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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:32 am

I like it. He'll have a lot of questions, too. (PS, that sounds like the Socratic cave adaptation in the Jed McKenna trilogy?)
Now the kid looks back at you and says "But it all feels real! I get really mad or sad all the time! I can't get away from myself in the movie, and I want to. I want to script a better movie, one I get to act better in, win all the fights, get the girl.
Everyone wants me to act better! How come they all believe it? They believe it's all really happening, and they think that I need to be different. I think I need to be different. How will it feel to be 'outside' of that? And still have to live here?
Is that even possible? Did God make a mistake? "

So you have to tell the kid how it would feel to be in and out of the conditioned world. He has a lot of good questions, and you are gonna have to consider all the points. He's teaching you how to teach him. Kids, LOL.
Much love, Elizabeth

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true worcester
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Re: Elizabeth available?

Postby true worcester » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:49 pm

(Actually, I don't know much Jed M.; tried listening to the audiobooks, but moved too slow for me. I would have to tour the best excerpts.)
"But it all feels real!
Yeah, right? The ultimate in hi-definition displays! The clarity is totally incredible.
But the character feels real, I mean, it feels like me. And I get really mad or sad all the time! I can't get away from myself in the movie, and I want to.
Believe me, I really know how you feel. I was even more confused than that. And I know it sounds too good to be true: there's actually no getting trapped in the movie. Does the clarity of the display get trapped by the scenes or the screenplay or the script or the characters? Try looking at the clarity instead of the screenplay, just for a moment.... Get it? Even a sad or angry story is completely filled with the clarity, the clarity of the "seeing". And you'll have to try this out for yourself repeatedly for a while--it's good if you don't just sit back and believe me. Test this, then come back and challenge me: is not that clarity the greatest peace and happiness and, yes, love, that you can find anywhere? I'm telling you, this is the good stuff, honey, try it.

(To be continued....)


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