I may be awake but I'm still groggy

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:30 am

There continues to be the sense of self, does it even need to go away? Or does it just need to be seen as an illusion? Thoughts continue to arise, "am I missing something?" but then arises the recognition that there is no I. This is difficult for the mind to conceptualize. Thought is arising that the self being an illusion has been seen directly, but the mind continues to analyze. How did "you" know when it had been seen through directly? What is direct sight? Sight still seems to arise in the mind.

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:02 am

Hahaha. earlier today there arose a realization that your instruction to "keep questioning" really pissed off the mind. The emotion was all content and happy with what it had seen, no worries at all, and then all of a sudden you told it that it hadn't seen it yet - this spawned a LOT of confusion and negative emotions. Guess that just shows again how fickle thoughts are.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:51 am

A good description about no self by Damon Kamda:
It is possible to *see* beyond, or behind the whole conceptual matrix.
What is beyond, or behind that is, of course, beyond words, but it can be clearly seen and known.
That non-conceptual reality is what we're pointing to (as in: directing the attention towards) here.
The words "there is no self" are a method to point the attention to that- and it is explicitly NOT to be treated as a theory, a concept- it is what is often called a POINTER, to be discarded after it has done its work.
Once the emptiness of the conceptual framework (the story of the self, the world etc.) has been clearly seen, the words "there is no self" are completely meaningless.


Seeing is sudden but the way, the process to it is mostly step by step.
The reaction of your mind shows that it is losing bit by bit the grip on the functioning of Sean.
Keep questioning the mind with ‘is it true’, is it real’.

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:52 pm

It was seen last night clearly. This all is what is, and thought has identified it as me, and habitually thought continues to identify it as me, and that's alright. Beforehand there was the lingering idea that there is some awareness separate from the object of awareness, but then there was the realization that there cannot be awareness without an object of awareness, so they arise dependent of one another, they are one phenomenon. There is literally nothing behind this, no "silent witness" - only witnessing whenever the right conditions are in place. It seemed to be a process of negation; that lingering idea that there was the silent witness (that that was the real me) eventually was seen to be false. To even say that I am nothingness does not make sense, because there is nothing there to identify with. There only arise phenomena from nothingness, some of which are caused by the complex awareness of this brain and body in this general location. The awareness is not there without the mind there to be aware.

Self as a concept still exists, and the mind still has this habitual sense of self, but it is known and has been seen to be false, without doubt. It will take some time before this is truly ingrained in the mind, but that's alright.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:29 pm

What is the difference between now and when you started on this forum ?
What has changed?
What was the trigger?

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:51 pm

Yet again the mind desires confirmation, and yet that seems ridiculous. There was no permanent change in perception - the illusion can be seen through very easily again when considered, but the mind keeps telling itself that nothing is different so perhaps this isn't it. It surely seems like it is. If it is as simple as the Santa Clause analogy suggests, then there is no doubt. But all the mysticism that surrounds the idea of this 'realization' makes the mind doubtful. And then there is the recognition that this is just doubt arising -hah! This is going to take some getting used to.


(Went to post this and saw that you had posted the following:)

>What is the difference between now and when you started on this forum?

Well, not much has changed, to be honest. There originally was the conceptual understanding, and glimpses of the truth, but there lingered some uncertainty about it. There was a lingering idea that "I" am awareness, the silent witness, or whatever. Now it is seen that even awareness and witnessing are just phenomena arising just like everything else. There is no me, there is absolutely nothing behind the curtains, nothing to identify with, because identification itself is just an arising phenomenon.

>What has changed?

Nothing qualitative has changed, only my interpretation of reality. There is no more uncertainty about the self being an illusion. Before there was the expectation that when the illusion was penetrated, the entire perception of reality would shift. This certainly has not happened, but it doesn't need to happen either.

>What was the trigger?

Well there were 3 'steps' to the realization. First was the recognition that the mind was just threatening itself to prevent the seeing-through of the illusion of self. This disarmed the mind and allowed introspection without resistance. Second, there was the realization that nothing needs to change - that reality is complete already as it is, no matter the conscious state. This helped to get rid of any previous expectations of what would happen through the insight. And lastly, there was the recognition that there is absolutely no separation between awareness and the object of awareness - they are one and the same. Awareness is just another phenomenon arising like everything else. This really put the nail in the coffin for the self illusion - there is nothing left to identify with.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:14 pm

Could you again answer this questions

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion?

Take your time to answer them with total honesty and in your own words.
It's already night here and will read the answers tomorrow.

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strostel
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby strostel » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:31 am

Thank you again Patrick.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There has always been and always will be a self concept, but that is just a concept. There is the sense of self, but no self causing the sense. The self is nothing more than an idea, and a very useful one at that, but it also tends to cause a lot of attachments. When the self is seen as something of substance, it causes thoughts and feelings of fear and worry for its benefit and survival. There is the fear that if the body dies, the self goes with it. But the self was never there to begin with so it cannot go anywhere - there is nothing that can die. It can be forgotten, but then again it is forgotten whenever it is not being thought of - so that is of little concern. There is the character Sean, but he is just an idea. He never had any power to begin with, but the mind thought he did, so the mind was fooling itself.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It starts as soon as a being is given and considers its own identity. It becomes attached to the identity and gives the identity the power to determine its actions. It's as if you're given a character to play in a play, and eventually you become convinced that you are that character. The truth is that you are the entire play and you are none of it, depending on how you look at it.

3) How does it feel to see this?

There was no crying or laughing or anything, just a big "OOOohhhh..." and then I went to sleep for the night. There was already had a strong conceptual understanding of it beforehand, and I tried to live by that, so it doesn't feel all that different. It feels sort of liberating, and the desire to 'figure it out' or find enlightenment is gone. It doesn't feel like enlightenment, but that doesn't really matter anyway.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion?

"You have been living your whole life thinking that you are in control. The truth is that you are not in control. More specifically, there is no 'you' to be in control. Every action your body has taken, every thought that has arisen in your mind, has happened without anyone behind the curtains making it happen. Everything that is within your experience is entirely a product of past events. Just as your heart beats without anyone's approval, your mind thinks without anyone's approval, and your body acts without anyone's approval. There is no 'you' back there making it all happen. There isn't even a 'you' back there watching it all happen. There is no entity back there that is aware of what is going on; awareness is simply arising because the appropriate conditions are in place for awareness to arise." Even this is just a conceptual understanding though, in order to really show them the truth, it would be necessary to go through the critical questioning processes that is used here.

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Patrick
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Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy

Postby Patrick » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:34 pm

Hi Sean,

Thanks for this very clear answers.
The LU guides confirm that you see it.
I sent you a private message for access to our aftercare LU FB group.


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