Looking for some help please

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Lindylou
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Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:44 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is a body and mind, possibly even a personality but that "I" am not running the show. That stuff is happening but there is no one doing it. Other than supreme intelligence/consciousness.

What are you looking for at LU?
I understand the concept intellectually. I've had lots of tears, things are shifting. When it first hit me I experienced grief...the pointlessness of everything...what the hell was the point of any of it, just feeding a lie, may as well sell up and go live in a caravan. And the not being in control takes getting used to. I thought id let go of trying to control life but clearly not. Today i felt the freedom flip side of this a little. I am reading the Gateless Gatecrasher pdf, identifying with many of the examples. But "I" haven't experienced the reality, "I haven't seen it yet. So its still a belief not a knowing. And...if a computer program (consciousness) is driving the show...surely there is a sub program directing Lynnes body?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Im hoping they can guide me to the place where mind cannot grasp it, where the interconnectedness and oneness "I" have believed in for 10 years is shown beyond all doubt. I'd "bought in" to the soul, reincarnation, so not sure where they fit in now. And have other doubts such as if there is no "my mum" or "my dad" (who have both passed) and no "me" what is left? Feels scary and vulnerable and alone. Hoping some light could be shed on that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
2004 felt like I'd been asleep for 40 years then woke up, precipitated by series of personal major life events...then 5 years of seeking, reading spiritual books. Then on a gentle simmer until last year when I met someone by chance who introduced me to a non-duality meet up. Id never heard the term before. Started going monthly since Feb, again journey inwards invited by personal challenges. 6 months of intense reading, experiencing, letting go and introduction to the idea of no separate self for the first time a couple of months ago. In last month Ive listened to Mooji, Jeff Foster The Deepest Acceptance and Adyashanti The End of Your World.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:09 am

Hello Lindylou,

My name is Adil and I am a guide here and we may start a journey together if you like..

What shall i call you Lindy ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:03 pm

Hi Adil Thank you so much for offering to help me. Excited and terrified at the same time. You can call me Lynne

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:43 am

Hi Adil Thank you so much for offering to help me. Excited and terrified at the same time. You can call me Lynne
Ok Lynne..

Can you talk about "terrifed" part a bit more ?
What do you think it will happen ?
Do you think everything will vanish ?

:)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:46 am

But "I" haven't experienced the reality, "I haven't seen it yet.

Can you tell me what do you mean here by saying "reality" ?

What are your expectations ?


Thank you

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:48 pm

Hi Adil. Ok, here we go...
"Can you talk about "terrifed" part a bit more ?”
"I" am wondering if "I" will be able to see/find what "I" have heard and read others talk about – i.e. everything being connected, all one, no separation. Perhaps a fear of failure? And once you have seen, there's no going back – what’s seen cannot be unseen. There's no hiding in comfort anymore. A strange feeling that life will be more challenging afterwards, because it will demand absolute integrity, being true to “oneself”. A feeling of being out of control (though recognising “I” am not in control anyway). A feeling that life has been a bit too easy for “me” up to now. Seeing how difficult it is to write sentences/communicate without using “I” and “me” and “oneself” labels.. .
“What do you think it will happen ?”
“I” am expecting – perhaps, a resolution of existing confusion (a good thing). I am hoping this process will give clarity, although recognise it’s just the start of the journey. And no doubt there will be a transition period where old beliefs and patterns fall away. This is all good, although accepting parts of it may feel uncomfortable.
“Do you think everything will vanish ?"
No, “I” don’t think it will all vanish. “I” am not quite sure how it will pan out. Other’s experiences say it’s the same but different. “I” can’t quite envisage how life will be different. Just a small shift in perspective perhaps, like looking through a different lens, that isn’t distorted any more. Sure that life will continue with this understanding, but not sure HOW life continues, so perhaps the fear is a fear of the unknown or a lack of control.
But "I" haven't experienced the reality, "I haven't seen it yet. Can you tell me what do you mean here by saying "reality" ?
That everything is connected, all one, no separation. “I” believe it as a concept but “I” cannot say “I” know it to be true
What are your expectations ?
Hoping to know rather than just believe. “If consciousness wakes up in one embodiment, the ripples go all over…wake up other embodiments”. So hoping to see the truth of who “we” are.

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:51 pm

“I’ve” been making some random notes resulting from reading the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf or the App (before we initiated this guidance) . Don’t know if these will help, but might give you some clues. If not please disregard.

Animals – no self – life happens. Agreed

Breathing – happens, doesn’t require a “doer”. However – “I” can change breathing intentionally, eg to slow heart rate. Seems to be:
a) Unconscious breathing – just happens, its not being observed
b) Conscious (aware) breathing ie its being observed but no “doer” eg breath counting
c) altered (brain involved) breathing – slowing breathing down, intentionally deep inhalations, full exhalations - this last one is the one that feels there is a “doer”

“You don’t own the soul” – in which case who does? Where does the soul fit into all of this?

SOMETHING experiences the world uniquely through the body/mind labelled Lynne. If that isn’t “me”, who or what is it?

“Its not the labelling that drops and not the feeling of beingness, but the belief there is a “you” to which all this is happening” – this makes sense.

Why/how is this body (labelled Lynne) that consciousness is experiencing itself through, “behaving” or “reacting” differently to another body? Personality/uniqueness?

Life feels personal

Why is “My” cup different from all other cups in the world. Because its uniquely identifiable and has a story attached, e.g. it invokes memories of where it was bought, how much it cost, the place it was bought, who else was there etc etc. So “I” guess the same applies with “my body”.

Is “my” experience, this that feels personal, just part of collective consciousness??

In the way that drivers have different cars with different functionality, aren’t “we” all getting a personal experience depending on the body being “used?” to experience the world?

Does this BODY labelled Lynne experience anything? Or does experience just happen? In which case what is the point of the body?

If there is no self, who is the one buying into the illusion? Human brain? Thought?

“Me-ness” is how “I” process input differently to another body mind – eg joke is told, some laugh, some smile, some cant see the joke etc

Individuality. Doesn’t have to be special but it is just different.

Its like the experience is familiar. “I” know this human being, “I” recognise this pattern of reaction, “I” notice this has changed

When “I” paint – UNTIL MIND GETS INVOLVED – I become the brush. I emerge from a trance like state where I cannot remember the steps taken to achieve the result. Painting happens, no doer. From a state of no-mind, it is effortless. When there is effort, trying, memories (of what did and didnt work last time), labelling, it APPEARS there is a doer.

Is this “uniqueness” just a program, a pattern, a groove, even a stuckness? The characteristics could change tomorrow due to experience, learning etc. So “I” paint trees in “my” style and it is recognised, typical of “me”. But if I go to a class that could change and “I” could paint in a completely different style.

Where does the personality reside? In the body? In the brain? Is the body like a processing machine for input eg sights, sounds, tastes, information with output such as sensations, experiences (and a whole lot of mind thought and labelling)

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:53 pm

PS thank you for the love :)
And thank you again for your time, it is really appreciated. Sending love back to you :)

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:12 pm

Not quite sure on the "rules" here whether I need to post daily or if I should first await a reply from you :)

Some more thoughts on the "fear" :

Of not being able to relate to people - how do you have a "normal" conversation. Seems phoney somehow, like pretence.

With no self, what is the motivation or point in living? Not getting suicidal here :) just wondering.

Loss of "accepted" belief systems e.g. life, death, soul, reincarnation, here for a reason, soul groups etc. Took a big leap for me to believe in all this stuff!, not sure how much of it will need to be thrown out of the window now!

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am

Thank you for your honest answers Lynne.

I can say only one thing about these :
These are just thoughts and we will be looking at thoughts all the way and see that what they talk about is not real and means nothing.

So, expectations are ok to be there. We can never know what will happen but i can say that none of your negative expectations will occur.

Enlightenment is nothing more than seeing that self is an illusion. No angels, no magic wand erasing all your troubles, no people around you seeing a halo around your head and respecting you and all that, as you rightly observed
It is so simple. When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you will laugh.

That's all..

Let's start..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:52 am

Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:55 am

Can you please tell me what comes when i tell you:

THERE IS NO YOU! NEVER EXISTED! IN ANY FORM! NO BIRTH NO DEATH! YOU DON'T EXIST!


Thank you
Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:49 pm

It is so simple. When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you will laugh.
Looking forward to it ;-)
THERE IS NO YOU, YOU DON’T EXIST
Like anything…when you question a belief you’ve held for a long time – forever – there is shock, denial. That’s ridiculous, that’s impossible sort of reaction. Lady from non-D group suggested if it was too difficult, just allow “no self” for 24 hours and then I could pick it up again and carry on as normal afterwards metaphorically speaking. This led to tears – lots of them, and confusion – lots of it. Feelings of pointlessness. So that was 4-6 weeks ago. Now “I” hear it again “THERE IS NO YOU”. So those initial reactions have died down, the idea has had chance to sink in. “I” can see that self is a thought, a construct, like the ego.

So…if there is no “me” – what remains? The body/mind labelled Lynne that has some “life force” (consciousness?) – a life force that is no longer present when the body dies (or a life force which is always present but just not in that body anymore?) But no mind-constructed self.

So now a lot of questions arise…

? Are memories stored by the human mind and by consciousness? I.e. when the body/mind dies, is all experience during the life of that body “lost”, or is a “copy” of it (for want of a better word) retained in the collective conscious experience?

? Is the body/mind just a self-contained (self is in our language everywhere!) entity or program, which, given food and water, can sustain and experience life “on its own” i.e. it runs “itself”. Ok, if so, for what purpose? For consciousness to experience life/the world as a human?

? Feelings and experience are real, although they may be perceived in different ways depending on conditioning. If “I“ am not real, WHO or WHAT is experiencing the experiencing? Is the experience of the body and the experience of consciousness one and the same?
NEVER EXISTED
If I do not exist then it is true that I have never existed. This sort of this doesn’t come and go!!
NO BIRTH NO DEATH
The body/mind labelled Lynne was born and the body will die. But if I do not exist it is also true that I was not born and “I” will not die. Just the body/mind.

“I” know “I” am not my body mind. But there is no “I”. So what remains? Not sure. I guess this is the same question, WHO or WHAT knows or is experiencing the experiencing?
IN ANY FORM
Hmmm. This got me. Not quite sure what you meant by this.

Thank you

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:57 pm

Ok Lynne..
I hear that mind talk.
Asking questions..Lots of why's - how's...
Instead of answering your questions and creating some concepts, we will be looking directly to find if there is a you..
the body/mind labelled Lynne that has some “life force”
For now i can only say this
There is no "body - mind"
There is no "body"
There is no "mind"

There is only what is..
To see this,
Let's start..

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.
IT is simple.

You can simply LOOK and see what is true and what is not.
Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences 'colour-sound-smell-sensation-taste
and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

NOT the content of thought. Content of the thought is not reliable because it does not say the truth all the time

For example; Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish ?


The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you you can locate this "i" (feeling) in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

Point there and tell me...Don't go to thought stories and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?


Blue marked parts are for you to answer :)

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:10 pm

Oh dear this is tough...more so because it is supposed to be simple :)
There is no "body - mind"
There is no "body"
There is no "mind"

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.
There is a body. It can be seen, it can be pointed to. "I" can't "see" the brain/mind, so without drilling a hole in my skull I cant verify there's a brain in there but I'm pretty sure there is.
Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish ?
No definitely not. No actual fish in the thought, never was, never can be.
Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you you can locate this "i" (feeling) in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

Point there and tell me...Don't go to thought stories and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?
There is no "I" feeling in the body so I can't point to anything. However - a feeling is abstract. So I cant point to any feeling - unless I suppose there could be a feeling of queasiness in the stomach, for example. Doesn't mean there is anything physically there actually in the stomach, just a bunch of sensations.

Thank you


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