Accepting What Is

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:00 am

Hi Stella,
This habit of needing a subject for every action, this habit of language is probably the hardest of beliefs to see and drop.
Does the habit of using the words I/me/my/mine as a subject needs to be dropped?
Or they can be there without anything / anybody being bothered by their presence?


You didn’t reply to an important question:

Is there a cup + the awareness of it? Or in other words, is there a knower + a known?
Are there 2 things there? A knower + known?


You previously wrote:
I don’t know... what is behind all of this awareness is “who’s looking?” My chest is really tight. Tears rising...
So who is looking?

Is there a LOOKER + the LOOKED AT? Are there two?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:34 am

This habit of needing a subject for every action, this habit of language is probably the hardest of beliefs to see and drop.
Does the habit of using the words I/me/my/mine as a subject needs to be dropped?
Or they can be there without anything / anybody being bothered by their presence?
They aren’t a problem if seen that they are a convenience and not standing for something real. Was just sharing that it felt like a strong habit to slip into thinking there must be a self if a verb is used. And even when I think I have understood and seen it, I’ll write something to you and you’ll point out that there’s something I wrote that still sounds like I’m looking for a who. I was just sharing that I was aware of that. Doesn’t change that I know there is no Stella/me other than in thought and habit.
You didn’t reply to an important question:
Is there a cup + the awareness of it? Or in other words, is there a knower + a known?
Are there 2 things there? A knower + known?

You previously wrote:
I don’t know... what is behind all of this awareness is “who’s looking?” My chest is really tight. Tears rising...
So who is looking?

Is there a LOOKER + the LOOKED AT? Are there two?
Interesting. I thought I answered that question and at length. There is only the looking. Or to match your words, there is only the known, there is only the looking. There is only one thing, not two. There’s no one looking, just the looking.

Hope that’s a bit clearer.

Stella
“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:45 am

Hi Stella,
I was just sharing that I was aware of that. Doesn’t change that I know there is no Stella/me other than in thought and habit.
Good :)

Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 am

Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?
BIG FAT YES.. it is clear. it is seen. No doubt at all.

Stella
“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:43 am

Hi Stella,

Great!

How’s does it feel to see this?

What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?

What hasn’t changed?

What is the main difference?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:44 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear that the I, as a separate self is an illusion?
BIG FAT YES.. it is clear. It is seen. No doubt at all.
How’s does it feel to see this?
Relaxed is what seems the best description. With some laughing/lightness mixed in. Sprinkled with a bit of amazement.
What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?
There’s a decreased emotional reaction to what is happening in everyday life. Before there was this thinking mistaken as looking that took everything that happened as personal. Yay or Nay for Stella/me.

Some “changes” are very subtle. Where before I would have said, “It’s like I’m on the outside watching a character in a movie” and thought that was true now, the separation in that thought is seen and experienced as untrue. There’s no one on the outside watching anything. There’s only looking and thoughts/emotions/states as they arise are seen as the wisps of smoke they are. Unreal.

I just stopped typing and ate a pear. Eating was experienced. Then typing was experienced. Didn’t eat it while typing away listening to thoughts. There are many more moments in the day where looking is experienced... the richness of the what is is experienced. And it’s not really a change, the what is hasn’t gotten richer....the clouds of thoughts/automatic beliefs seem to have lifted. If that makes any sense.
What hasn’t changed?
Not much has changed as the day flows. Breathing, cooking, walking, everyday life goes on. (With the exception of the no outside spiritual reading/discussions/ etc we agreed upon, that is still in effect). No one has indicated they’ve noticed any change in Stella/me.

Thoughts/emotions/states still rise and pass away. Reactions to those still occur. (But more and more they are don’t seem to last or don’t cause more thoughts/emotions/states and devolve...but this isn’t a not change!)

Stella/me still goes to the market, has conversations with strangers, prefers to watch movies than sports, loves music, loves to write... still goes on walks at the end of the day but there’s more of truly experiencing all that. On walks the sky is experienced as multiple shades of blue, the green of the trees, the birds, insects singing are experienced rather than thinking about the last time she was walking and.....
What is the main difference?
I’d have to say the looking to my own experience of life to answer questions rather than quoting something I’ve read and assumed belief in. And being in the moment in life flowing rather than taking up abode in the thinking world

And lastly, some of what I have written here sounds like there’s a looking that is happening that is causing what seems like changes. That’s not what it feels like though. What it really seems like is that there’s no I here doing anything, no cause for any changes, there is only experiencing what is, what’s here right now. Comparing allows it to look like something is happening, but there is no direct knowledge of that. It’s supposition as to how or why. All I know is that in this moment, this was seen and in the next moment something different was seen. And that it is all fine, just as it is. No wonder why relaxed is the word that best relays the feeling of this journey. Where before Stella/me was responsible for everyone and everything, now there is just the what is, unfolding.

Just this.
Stella
“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:55 pm

One last thing....the seeing that thoughts are not real. The learning to look. BIG CHANGE or realization. And the reminder that this is all very simple, even a five year old can see it. All the ‘striving’ is silly. It’s right here.

Stella
“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:28 pm

Hi Stella,

Yes, it’s very simple :)

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:14 pm

Hi Vivien,
Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No, there is no separate self. Look as much as possible and there is no place, so sound, no taste, no touch, no smell of it. No form, no shape...only thoughts about it. And like the “self”, they also cannot be seen, touched, tasted, heard or smelled. Unreal.
Was there ever?
I only know what is now. I can think about what that means in terms of what is called the past. Logically it would follow that what is True now, would have been true before and will be true in the future. But I can only tell you what I know now. Following that, no there never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
Looking is happening right now. It is always happening. This capacity for looking (5 senses) seems tied to the body or is experienced through the body, but it is not the body. The body is a conduit for the looking. Kind of like the camera is the device through which pictures are taken. As an infant, there was only looking. Slowly learning began to happen. The body was given a name, Stella. It was broken down into parts, thumb, nose, eyes, etc.. Then good and bad, wanted, not wanted. Stella went to school and learned ideas about how to control the world around her. What the “rules” were and how she could use them to get the things she wanted.

And along this way, Stella stopped looking purely, everything became clouded over by thoughts about how things are “supposed” to be, not how they actually were seen. She saw how others seemed to see things more clearly than she did so she read and listened to all these others and began to build her own belief system about how the world is and should be. Very rarely did her feet ever touch the seen and even when they did, even a little bit, very quickly this thought life swooped in and took what was seen and modeled it into something that matched her already thoughts and beliefs.

As soon as this process of seeing Stella began, and this thought world grew, there was a feeling of loneliness, a need to protect herself, her ideas, her way of being that worried and caused unrest in her thought world. It felt like if her thoughts told her to go right and she did, she was wrong. If she went left, she was wrong too! No matter what, she was losing. Despair. This can’t be right.

Because of all this labeling of everything, breaking everything down into parts, pieces, and the despair of never finding a true answer, Stella starts to look for where she came from, before all of this labeling, who she truly was. So the journey for the Higher Self begins. More books, more teachers, more and more thoughts and beliefs and even less looking is happening. And with every thought addition, there’s more to protect, more to lose. Even though some teachers have stressed to look for herself, it’s been so long since she’s looked, she doesn’t understand what it means. She looks, but in her thought world. Not the looking before Stella was named. And seriously, after all these years of studying and reading and struggling and seeking it’s all about going back to where none of that had been achieved? Ludicrous. Find another teacher. Read another book and on on and on it goes....until it doesn’t.

3) How does it feel to see this?
Like I said in yesterday’s post, relaxed. Lighter perhaps. In some ways, empty. Where before I entertained a host of thoughts and engaged with them ad nauseous, now, they are mostly seen and off they go. Maybe openness would be a better word than empty.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The striving is pretty much gone. Talking with you continues but the need to read more, talk more, argue about...seems to have subsided almost to disappear. And its not as if all the beliefs have disappeared, the annoyed states gone...but they are not as troublesome as they were once thought to be. Mellow. That’s a good word.

This seeing that ALL thoughts are unreal was a huge realization. Especially as in some ways, that’s been part of what I’ve been reading/learning for many years. It was never seen that all that has been done is to divide up thoughts into which ones are real in her opinion and which ones are not. LOL! I’ll keep thoughts and beliefs about the spiritual world, the Holy Spirit and that the physical world is not real and cast out thoughts of victim, separation, heaven and hell.... probably one of the biggest realizations was that beliefs held supported separation even though it was believed that I didn’t believe in separation. (Awareness and object is an example as you pointed out.)

Examples... as some realizations rose, thoughts about how if this continues on I will be unable to return to my old groups, rejoin them in a meaningful way. This was seen as a thought and released quite easily that there’s no way of knowing what that moment will be until that moment arrives.

Seeing there’s no one here making decisions about what to “create” in the next moment. Waking up in the morning, who decides to hit the snooze button? It just happens. No one is there to decide.

Seeing when I’m talking about something that I have not looked at for myself. I really don’t have any good examples of this as I’ve been pretty much cloistered these weeks. Once I return to regular life of the groups, this will be able to be seen in action better.
That action doesn’t need a subject. Looking, walking, breathing, typing, hearing, feeling, sleeping, waking on and on. Just happening. No one to blame, no one to feel shame, no one to worry about, no one to criticize...wow! How great is that!

Watching the news last night at my sister-in-law’s house...just shook my head with a half smile. Not that comments weren’t shared but before I looked, it would have felt “right” and “wrong” and a position taken. Again, mellow comes to mind. And a bit of a smile.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
I’ve shared most of this already, in previous posts. The rain just raining. Realizing no one is there. This was really the breakthrough that action does not need a subject to happen. There’s something that happens when something is truly seen and I cannot describe it. Words fail or maybe thoughts fail. But it’s like where before I saw one thing, in the next moment something wholly different is there. We haven’t really talked about recognition but maybe that’s a bit of what it might be?

Seeing how in my own idea of being totally correct in what I was saying that there was the seeds of exactly the opposite of what was thought to be said. The example of using Awareness as an entity or thing while touting non-separation. Thoughts were saying “I’m looking” but there wasn’t really looking going on, just falling back on learned knowledge. This was pretty similar to the moment talking about the garden hose. Seeing how this thinking world cares not for truth but merely to grind on.

And seeing that thoughts are unreal. Not just saying the words but looking for them. What an absolute astonishing experience to not even know if there was thinking going on, where they come from, where they are, go to. I said they were like wisps of smoke but they are not even that accessible. Shocking for someone who treasured them.

So I don’t know what the last bit was, perhaps the seeing thoughts are not real. It was an accumulative chipping away at the unreal.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
This has been a really difficult question to answer. You’re asking me questions and I want to do what you are asking me to do but honestly, all of those words are concepts, products of a thought world that isn’t real. What makes things happen? No idea. It just happens. How does it work? No clue. I could tell you a story about how decisions are made in this conceptual world but it would only be a story.

Give examples[/u][/b] from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Breathing happens all the time. There’s seeing, there’s walking, there’s typing, there’s rocking, there’s talking, thoughts show up, emotions show up, one moment is followed by another. Looking happens all the time.
b) What are you responsible for?
Who would be responsible?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Have none as there is no one to be responsible for anything. Am I missing the point here?
6) Anything to add?
Everything seems to just move from one moment to the next. The perceived angst of the beliefs in self no longer seem to surround each moment. there is just the moment experienced and then the next. And of course, that’s all that’s every happened. Paradox. One of my beliefs has been that when one approaches a paradox, one approaches truth. Perhaps that belief will be kept a bit longer. ;)

Stella
“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:00 am

Hi Stella,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 am

Ok thanks.


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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:15 am

Hi Stella,

There are no further questions for you. Congratulations for seeing through the self and for your persistent looking. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

The admins were faster than me :) Your username has been turned from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Also this thread has been moved the Archie section of the forum.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

And I got your message from Admin. Thank you :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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StellaA
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby StellaA » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:26 am

How wonderful! Wanted to send you much gratitude for pointing the way, being so attentive and straightforward. It has made such a difference. This is really a great platform, one on one. I have totally enjoyed it, even those moments that seemed confusing and difficult. Soooo much better than just reading someone else’s answer. All the very best to you Vivien and if questions come up, I’m very grateful you are still available to connect to.


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“We are knee-deep in a river searching for water.” - Kabir Helminiski

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Vivien
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Re: Accepting What Is

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:29 am

You are very welcome dear Stella :)

I'm glad that it worked
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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