Frihet

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pia
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Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Hi Adil,
Is I thought a special thought?

Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do ?
No I thought is not special- thoughts are just thoughts and temporary guests. That is also true for thoughts that comes in appears for me.They come from the same mystical space as all other thoughts. A thought can definitely not think. The thought cannot do anything. If a thought wants to lift my arm it does not lift the arm.
It seems that I am desperately trying to hold on to the me here.
How can you hold on to something which does not exist ?
What can an unexisting "me" do ?
I know but it is as if the mind tries to hold on to some emergency exit trying to come up with something proving its existence although there is a evident that it is not logical and true. An unexisting me cannot do anything.

Love
Pia

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:48 am

Hi Adil,
Is I thought a special thought?

Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do ?
No I thought is not special- thoughts are just thoughts and temporary guests. That is also true for thoughts that comes in appears for me.They come from the same mystical space as all other thoughts. A thought can definitely not think. The thought cannot do anything. If a thought wants to lift my arm it does not lift the arm.
It seems that I am desperately trying to hold on to the me here.
How can you hold on to something which does not exist ?
What can an unexisting "me" do ?
I know but it is as if the mind tries to hold on to some emergency exit trying to come up with something proving its existence although there is a evident that it is not logical and true. An unexisting me cannot do anything.

Love
Pia
Thanks for the looking Dear Pia,
That is also true for thoughts that comes in appears for me
Thought is. Or thoughts are.

Do they appear for a you ?
Where is the "you" that they appear for ?


I know but it is as if the mind tries to hold on to some emergency exit trying to come up with something proving its existence although there is a evident that it is not logical and true.
:)
These are thought stories. Just look.
Don't think.
You perfectly saw that unexisting me cannot do anything.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:50 am

What do you see now Pia ?
Where is this self ?
What is it ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:56 am

Also for today do this:

change

I think into Thinking
I walk into Walking
I breath into Breathing
I see into Seeing
I sit into Sitting
I "attention" into attention happening

whenever inner voice starts to label things.
Change your language only for today and report me how it goes please.

Sending much love...
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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pia
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Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:23 pm

Hi!
What do you see now Pia ?
Where is this self ?
What is it ?
The self is nowhere- with open eyes there is or are body/bodies behaving in different ways.With closed eyes there is no body or bodies-only sensed impressions, like the movement of breathing, sounds, thinking.
Now this is thinking; without the brain and the alive body which neither of them can be sensed as objects since they do not have definite limits or any fixed substance- but there would not be any information from the senses coming in awareness without them. But there is still no self! So the conclusion is that there is no self. Is there energy then? But energy too cannot be seen or experienced directly as pure energy or as a fixed thing. So then there is no energy either-there simply is.

Also for today do this:

change

I think into Thinking
I walk into Walking
I breath into Breathing
I see into Seeing
I sit into Sitting
I "attention" into attention happening

whenever inner voice starts to label things.
Change your language only for today and report me how it goes please.
Finding that there is an immense reference to I and it -as a fixed entity or fixed objects in the thinking when trying this when driving home from work. Referring to I see this and that, all the time. Shifting to there is blue sky, driving, seeing a car, there are trees, there are thoughts -makes the whole perspective wider and different not circling around the me or I. Becoming more open and spacious!

Willing to continue this exercise tomorrow and the rest of the day.
Love,
Pia

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 am

Thank you for your good looking Pia,
Now this is thinking; without the brain and the alive body which neither of them can be sensed as objects since they do not have definite limits or any fixed substance- but there would not be any information from the senses coming in awareness without them.
What is the actual experience of a brain ?
What is the actual experience of a head ? Let's look...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’. Notice what is actually present.

Is it really a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?



there simply is.
Sure. That's it!

Finding that there is an immense reference to I and it -as a fixed entity or fixed objects in the thinking when trying this when driving home from work. Referring to I see this and that, all the time. Shifting to there is blue sky, driving, seeing a car, there are trees, there are thoughts -makes the whole perspective wider and different not circling around the me or I. Becoming more open and spacious!
Very good looking.
Thank you

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:23 am

After answering my previous questions let's make a deeper look to the idea of body,

Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensatons labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Take your time, look carefully and write what comes...
Thank you



Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).


Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?


(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘gong through the room’; OR s there only an mage that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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pia
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Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:35 pm

Hi!
Now answering the first mail and needing more time for the last mail.
What is the actual experience of a brain ?
What is the actual experience of a head ? Let's look...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’. Notice what is actually present.
Is it really a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?
Pressning a finger on top of head there is only senses of pressure between the two. There is no sensation of a head. Pressing on each side of the head there are very different sensations depending on where I press the fingers the cheeks then is softer than pressing on the bony harder parts. So the sensed impression is very varying. The head is not found! There is nothing sensed between the pressure points it seems empty in the middle in experience. It is a thought making a picture creating the idea of the head.

Sending love,
Pia

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pia
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:49 pm

Hi Adil!
Here cones the latent research;
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensatons labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Take your time, look carefully and write what comes...
Thank you



Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).


Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘gong through the room’; OR s there only an mage that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
2) Surprisingly there is a totalt different interpretation feeling the body with closed and opened eyes. There is no connection but the eye image is strong in thoughts labelling what is seen and but totally different from sensations which are felt.
3) The same goes from moving the hand- it looks completely different when moving in the mirror from the felt sensations. There is no connection!
4) Looking at the hand -new images arise but there is still no connection with the sensations.
5) What is seen in the mirror seems somehow like a picture distant from the actual experience of my body. It looks like an object a bit like a stranger just looking or appearing. Thoughts label it as an object or a human being with surroundings but the impressions is more like a picture of something that is not new and shows shapes and colours.
6) The mind works all the time especially when looking- making mental images and labelling what is there and making an image of what is not seen, filling the gaps so the picture becomes complete.
7) I find it very hard when looking not to have thoughts responding to the shape of the body labelling it as a body maybe not mine but anyway, even though looking in the background in the mirror just seeing a foreign shadow. With closed eyes it is much easier to get a more realistic perspective of what is.
8) The sensations when moving slowly are more dominant and reliable than the idea of a body walking.
9) No body is found and no limited room is found. There is a sense though of sensations in space but no direct experience of a room.

Ok that’s all for now, good night
Pia

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adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:16 pm

Hi!
Now answering the first mail and needing more time for the last mail.
What is the actual experience of a brain ?
What is the actual experience of a head ? Let's look...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’. Notice what is actually present.
Is it really a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?
Pressning a finger on top of head there is only senses of pressure between the two. There is no sensation of a head. Pressing on each side of the head there are very different sensations depending on where I press the fingers the cheeks then is softer than pressing on the bony harder parts. So the sensed impression is very varying. The head is not found! There is nothing sensed between the pressure points it seems empty in the middle in experience. It is a thought making a picture creating the idea of the head.

Sending love,
Pia
Very good looking...
Sure it is a thought creating a head and a body..
Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:18 pm

Hi Adil!
Here cones the latent research;
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensatons labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Take your time, look carefully and write what comes...
Thank you



Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).


Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘gong through the room’; OR s there only an mage that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
2) Surprisingly there is a totalt different interpretation feeling the body with closed and opened eyes. There is no connection but the eye image is strong in thoughts labelling what is seen and but totally different from sensations which are felt.
3) The same goes from moving the hand- it looks completely different when moving in the mirror from the felt sensations. There is no connection!
4) Looking at the hand -new images arise but there is still no connection with the sensations.
5) What is seen in the mirror seems somehow like a picture distant from the actual experience of my body. It looks like an object a bit like a stranger just looking or appearing. Thoughts label it as an object or a human being with surroundings but the impressions is more like a picture of something that is not new and shows shapes and colours.
6) The mind works all the time especially when looking- making mental images and labelling what is there and making an image of what is not seen, filling the gaps so the picture becomes complete.
7) I find it very hard when looking not to have thoughts responding to the shape of the body labelling it as a body maybe not mine but anyway, even though looking in the background in the mirror just seeing a foreign shadow. With closed eyes it is much easier to get a more realistic perspective of what is.
8) The sensations when moving slowly are more dominant and reliable than the idea of a body walking.
9) No body is found and no limited room is found. There is a sense though of sensations in space but no direct experience of a room.

Ok that’s all for now, good night
Pia
Thank you Pia for good looking..
YOu focused well and saw directly.

Now for the last time..

Do you have a body ?
Are you a body ?
Is there any body ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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pia
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Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:53 pm

Hi!
Do you have a body ?
Are you a body ?
Is there any body
I do not have a body. There is no nucleus or entity that can be identified as a body in direct experience. Only when looking visually there is a form and thoughts labelling what is seen as a body. So I am not a body. There is definitely no I either and there is no other either consequently. There is only sensed impressions in a certain moment that comes and goes always changing nothing holds them together.
So reflecting now; what am I then? Energy? Awareness? Nothing but an illusion and therefor everything?

Thanks for today,
Pia

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:20 am

Thank you for the replies Pia.
:)

So reflecting now; what am I then? Energy? Awareness? Nothing but an illusion and therefor everything?


There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.
Thoughts then comes into being separating experience into ‘seeing, hearing, sensing, etc.’. Then thought further divides seeing into seer, seeing and seen (similarly other aspects of experience).
Now you have seen that there is “no center” to experiences. There is JUST EXPERIENCE that is AWARE of ITSELF (some call this consciousness, awareness, bliss, love, one mind, brahman – it doesn’t matter how one wants to call it as long as that which is aware recognizes what it is not).
YOU are that dog, tree, car, mother, father (thought divides REAL YOU into a little 'you' and ‘dog, tree, car, mother, father’). YOU ARE EVERYTHING. Oneness is not a special experience, it is a simple recognition of what experience is “between two thoughts”. An undivided experience before thought starts labeling everything.

IS it clear for you ?
Can you see this your self ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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pia
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Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:04 pm

IS it clear for you ?
Can you see this your self ?
Yes it is always awareness and then comes impressions from the senses and reactions and thoughts labelling them that comes and goes and the awareness is there before and after the thoughts or reactions. This is the experience when looking but especially with opened eyes subject and object dividing here and there me and them comes in habitually so it takes a lot of training and work to strengthen what has been seen in every day life. It is easier to see this in meditation. So how can this truth be trained further and reinforced?

Have a good weekend,
Pia

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adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:34 pm

IS it clear for you ?
Can you see this your self ?
Yes it is always awareness and then comes impressions from the senses and reactions and thoughts labelling them that comes and goes and the awareness is there before and after the thoughts or reactions. This is the experience when looking but especially with opened eyes subject and object dividing here and there me and them comes in habitually so it takes a lot of training and work to strengthen what has been seen in every day life. It is easier to see this in meditation. So how can this truth be trained further and reinforced?

Have a good weekend,
Pia
Hello Pia :)

Realization needs NO TRAINING!
"YOU" can not do anything about it.
Did you have to train your self when you realized that Santa is not real ?
You don't need to see what is happening from a point of thought.
No need to stop labeling. Nothing has to be any different. Li
Seeing what is as what is is enough.
There is no one to do anything, and no one to change anything..
There has never been a separate self, so life goes on as life always has. It is only thought that suggests life needs to improve and that there are good and bad things in life. There is no one/no thing controlling how life unfolds as life unfolds spontaneously from moment to moment.

Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens. There is clear seeing that there is no self and in the next moment this clarity is muddied...all normal experiences. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing.


Let's see where are we dear Pia,

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a thinker of thought?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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