Grateful for a Guide

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:32 pm

Hello!
Without verbal and visual thoughts, what is the AE of the space that everything appears in?
Just what the senses can experience. There does not seem to be any AE of the space itself.
If the things that appear within the space is not separate, then how is known exactly that they appear in anything at all?
You wouldn't! I'm confused/stumped by this, by the fact that are appearances. When eyes are open there are appearances within the field of vision. I am unable to find anything within my AE.
Thought cannot be separated from awareness. Everything appears within awareness. You cannot separate the wave from the ocean...
This is an intellectual explanation. Thought content. Check if thoughts are ACTUALLY in correspondence with experience.
Thoughts are not actually in correspondence with anything at all in my AE. They just arise and dissipate.
What is the AE of ‘everything appears within awareness’?
"Everything" that I am aware of: taste, sensations, thoughts, etc. are what is appearing in awareness. If I am aware of it, then it appears within awareness.
How is this experienced EXACTLY?
Seeing, Smelling, sensation, Tasting, Hearing, Thought.
Without the knowing of a thought, or the sensation of clothes on the body, the sounds that "appear" at "our" ears, the taste of the bread and butter, there can be no way to know awareness. All these things reflect awareness, but we can not look at awareness directly. Awareness cannot see itself...
This is a compelling thought story, but what is the AE of this story?
Seeing, Smelling, sensation, Tasting, Hearing, Thought.
Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
I held my ipad and I am unable to experience it with anything but the five senses.
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses? Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
I don't believe it can be done.
If awareness cannot be experienced at all, how is it known EXACTLY that there is such thing as awareness?
I suppose we can't! Perhaps "awareness" is just another thought label. A word/idea that describes our 5 senses.
Can an actual awareness be found? If yes, how exactly?
No, just our senses.
Awareness cannot see itself...
If awareness is the one that knows and awareness cannot know itself, then how is it known that awareness as such really exists? Just because thoughts say so?
This group of exercises has kept wanting to draw me back into thoughts! However when I go back to AE (thank you!) all I can find are the 5 senses. That's it. My AE informs me that Awareness is just a thought, and that we cannot know anything other than our 5 senses.

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:47 am

Hi Molly,
Just what the senses can experience. There does not seem to be any AE of the space itself.
Without thoughts, how is it known that the senses doing the experiencing?
How is it known that the ear is hearing?
When eyes are open there are appearances within the field of vision.
Without verbal or visual thoughts, how is it known that the eyes are seeing?

What is the AE of open eyes?
What is the AE of closed eyes?

Can a sensation labelled 'eyes' see?
Can a sensation labelled 'ears' hear?
Thoughts are not actually in correspondence with anything at all in my AE.
Yes, thoughts are liars :)
"Everything" that I am aware of: taste, sensations, thoughts, etc. are what is appearing in awareness. If I am aware of it, then it appears within awareness.
This is a thought conclusion, it’s not coming from looking.

“If I am aware of it” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
Where is this ‘I’ exactly that is supposedly aware?


Saying that taste, sensation, thoughts appear in awareness is just a THOUGHT STORY, NOT AE.
There is ZERO AE of experience (thoughts, sensations, etc) appearing IN anything. NONE. Can you see this?
V: How is this experienced EXACTLY? [that things appear IN awareness]
M: Seeing, Smelling, sensation, Tasting, Hearing, Thought.
An image/color is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of image/color ONLY.
A sound is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of sound ONLY.
A taste is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of taste ONLY.
A smell is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of smell ONLY.
A sensation is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of sensation ONLY.
A thought is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of thought ONLY.

There is ZERO AE of things appearing IN awareness or anything.
Things appearing IN awareness is just the content of a thought. And not seen this thought only as an arising thought, but rather its content is taken as reality. Can you see this?
Seeing, Smelling, sensation, Tasting, Hearing, Thought.
What is the AE of seeing?
Can seeing as such be experienced at all? Or is there only image/color, just the ‘seen’?

Can hearing as such be experienced at all? Or only sounds can be experienced?

What is the AE of smelling?
V: Without the knowing of a thought, or the sensation of clothes on the body, the sounds that "appear" at "our" ears, the taste of the bread and butter, there can be no way to know awareness. All these things reflect awareness, but we can not look at awareness directly. Awareness cannot see itself...
This is a compelling thought story, but what is the AE of this story?
M: Seeing, Smelling, sensation, Tasting, Hearing, Thought.
Can you see that this story is not in line with AE? That this is just a fantasy, a speculation?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:02 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your patience. A couple days ago I suddenly became overwhelmed with this process. "I" did not experience fear, just sadness and disorientation. My AE was that thinking seemed to just stop. "I" couldn't make sense of the words you wrote and there was confusion. "Now" it has passed and I feel "myself" again. What else is there to say!? I welcome your insights.

Without thoughts, how is it known that the senses doing the experiencing? How is it known that the ear is hearing?
We cannot know this without thoughts! There is just hearing.
Without verbal or visual thoughts, how is it known that the eyes are seeing?
We cannot know this without thoughts! There is just seeing.
What is the AE of open eyes?
Image/color.
What is the AE of closed eyes?
Color or darkness. I don't know how to describe the AE.
Can a sensation labelled 'eyes' see?
No.
Can a sensation labelled 'ears' hear?
No.
“If I am aware of it” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence? Where is this ‘I’ exactly that is supposedly aware?
There is no "I"...
There is ZERO AE of experience (thoughts, sensations, etc) appearing IN anything. NONE. Can you see this?
Yes, AE just is, there is no experience appearing "in anything" at all, haha.
An image/color is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of image/color ONLY.
A sound is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of sound ONLY.
A taste is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of taste ONLY.
A smell is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of smell ONLY.
A sensation is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of sensation ONLY.
A thought is NOT the AE of ‘things appearing in awareness’, but the AE of thought ONLY.
There is ZERO AE of things appearing IN awareness or anything. Things appearing IN awareness is just the content of a thought. And not seen this thought only as an arising thought, but rather its content is taken as reality. Can you see this?
Yes, I can see this very clearly now.
What is the AE of seeing? Can seeing as such be experienced at all? Or is there only image/color, just the ‘seen’?
Thee is just image/color.
Can hearing as such be experienced at all? Or only sounds can be experienced?
No, sound is experienced, but not hearing.
What is the AE of smelling?
Just scent (the smelling?). How would you describe the AE of smelling?
All these things reflect awareness, but we can not look at awareness directly. Awareness cannot see itself...
Can you see that this story is not in line with AE? That this is just a fantasy, a speculation?
Yes, very clearly. A fabrication of thought.

Kind regards,
M

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:16 am

Hi Molly,
My AE was that thinking seemed to just stop. "I" couldn't make sense of the words you wrote and there was confusion. "Now" it has passed and I feel "myself" again.
These kind of temporary states can happen.
V: What is the AE of open eyes?
M: Image/color.
V: What is the AE of closed eyes?
M: Color or darkness. I don't know how to describe the AE.
Image/color is NOT the AE of ‘open eyes’, but the AE of color only.
Color or darkness is NOT the AE of ‘closed eyes’, but the AE of color only.
Sensations labelled as ‘open eyes’ or ‘closed eyes’ are NOT the AE of open or closed eyes, but the AE of sensation only.
There is NO AE of open or closed eyes at all. Can you see this?
Just scent (the smelling?). How would you describe the AE of smelling?
Smell
Yes, AE just is, there is no experience appearing "in anything" at all, haha.
Yes. Awareness is not something that is waiting in the background for an object (like thought or sensation) to appear and then latch onto them with its knowing or aware-ing ability, so the thought or the sensation become known by it. For this to be true, there must be not only a stand-alone awareness, but a stand-alone thought or a stand-alone sensation without the knowing element. But there cannot be a thought or sensation without the knowing of them. We can fantasize about it, but actually thought or sensation without the knowing element simply doesn’t exist either. Can you see this clearly?

Is it also totally clear that there is no stand-alone, independent awareness waiting in the background for an object to appear and then latch onto it with its knowing or aware-ing ability?


Rather aware-ing is appearing simultaneously with the appearance of the thought or sensation. But this is even not true. Since no two separate ‘things’, an awareness and the thought appearing together, but just one ‘thing’ appearing ‘thoughtawareing’ or ‘sensationawareing’. Can you see this clearly?

And even saying that only ‘thoughtawareing’ is appearing is not completely true, since the word ‘appearing’ already implies something or somewhere in which or where it can appear. But this is the point where language fails us, due to its dualistic nature.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:57 am

There is NO AE of open or closed eyes at all. Can you see this?
Ah! Something just clicked. The AE of EYES OPEN or CLOSED doesn't exist. I was reading it like so: when your eyes are open you SEE. So I interpreted it as what was the result of eyes open, not the AE of eyes open.
But there cannot be a thought or sensation without the knowing of them. We can fantasize about it, but actually thought or sensation without the knowing element simply doesn’t exist either. Can you see this clearly?
Yes, I see this. The idea that thoughts and sensations can exist without an actual experience (knowing of it) is just another thought or story.
Is it also totally clear that there is no stand-alone, independent awareness waiting in the background for an object to appear and then latch onto it with its knowing or aware-ing ability?
Yes, it sounds silly to me now.
Rather aware-ing is appearing simultaneously with the appearance of the thought or sensation. But this is even not true. Since no two separate ‘things’, an awareness and the thought appearing together, but just one ‘thing’ appearing ‘thoughtawareing’ or ‘sensationawareing’. Can you see this clearly?
Yes. I see now that awareness is just a label/idea /concept to describe something that doesn't exist. There is just whatever is actually happening. I have heard "everything happens within awareness", but AE is just thought, or hearing, etc.
But this is the point where language fails us, due to its dualistic nature.
I have found this to be true here. Finding words to describe this is very hard for me (judgement!) When I read what you write, it makes sense, but to turn around and be articulate about my understanding is very challenging.

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:07 am

Hi Molly,
Ah! Something just clicked. The AE of EYES OPEN or CLOSED doesn't exist. I was reading it like so: when your eyes are open you SEE. So I interpreted it as what was the result of eyes open, not the AE of eyes open.
But we cannot even say that anything is the result of something else. Since this would imply cause and effect and the notion of time.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?


Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?


Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Please spend lot of time with EACH question… Look very carefully… Look at what actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:35 am

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
Memory is just a thought happening now.
What is the memory ‘made of’?

Thoughts.
WHEN does the memory appear?

Now.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

There is no difference. Thought is thought.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It can't be known.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Thought.
WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

There is no difference. Thought is thought is thought.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It cannot be known. It's just a thought.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

There is no difference.

When I look/observe (AE) "memory" thoughts and thoughts about the "future", there was no difference. They appear and disappear just like all thoughts. Thoughts about thoughts. Labeling thoughts as types. But ultimately my AE was just: Thought. Thought. Thought. Thought. It all happened NOW.

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:28 am

Hi Molly,
When I look/observe (AE) "memory" thoughts and thoughts about the "future", there was no difference. They appear and disappear just like all thoughts. Thoughts about thoughts. Labeling thoughts as types. But ultimately my AE was just: Thought. Thought. Thought. Thought. It all happened NOW.
Great looking :)

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an ‘experiencer’?

Is there a ‘thinker’?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:51 am

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
No, there has never been an "I".
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
No, there is no volition/free will.
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
No, just experiencing.
Is there a ‘thinker’?
Hahahahah, No!!!
Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
Nope.
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
No...
Do others have responsibilities?
No...
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
Absolutely not!
Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Haha, no to this too.
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
No "you", no "me".
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Laughing and crying as these questions are being answered.
All so obvious now.
Now!
Now!
Now!

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:08 am

Hi Molly,
Laughing and crying as these questions are being answered.
All so obvious now.
Now!
Wonderful, I’m happy for you :)

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:24 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, I cannot find any separate entity that can be called "me" or "I". There was never a separate self. It has never existed, despite appearances.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
A little girl was brought home from the hospital. There was no experience of separation. Life was just happening. All the senses were engaged in equal measure. Life happened, needs were met. One week later baby girl is given a name. And the conditioning (brainwashing, haha!) of the separate self begins. As "time" goes by there is continuous reinforcement of that separate self and "I, me, mine" by everyone, including the little girl. It continues and grows and evolves until it can no longer be questioned.
NOW, there is the seeing that THOUGHTS hijack all the other senses and become the "King/Queen of the Land". We come to believe that they are more important than anything else. As adults, thinking drives everything we do because we believe that thoughts are real/reality. Questioning their validity goes against everything we are led to believe. But once you see that they are just a mirage, life can be experienced differently despite being exactly the same.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels freeing to see this. There is a great sense of relief. The difference is that while the intellectual knowledge had it's place, without LOOKING at experience, there would be no way to get to this place. "Normally" I can be anxious or a worrier. A thought will pass and a feeling will arise. Anxiety about __________(something). As I was driving a few days ago, the process started. Mild anxiety. And there was the usual process of looking for what was causing the feeling. Hmmm, I couldn't find anything at all! There was nothing to "hook" the anxiety into and I laughed out loud. It disappeared immediately.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Several days ago there was a strong sense of overwhelm during the reading of several of your responses. Thoughts were jumbled and I felt like my mind would not work. It was hard to describe my experience in words here. So, I gave myself permission to take a short break. And during those couple of days, I realized that this is not a test, there are no "wrong" answers. I told myself "Just go back to LOOKING (and not thinking!!!)". And the mind relaxed. I don't know how else to describe it.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
After all the looking, I cannot say that there is any decision, intention or free will, etc. done by an individual self. I could not find any of that in my actual experience. I have no idea how things happen, how they work or "what" is directing life. All I can say for sure is that there is no "me" doing it.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Our experience of the world is dictated by thoughts. Believing that our thoughts are real. However, now I cannot find any volition, and therefore I do not believe that "I" am responsible for anything. Everyday there appears to be many decisions taken. But, if I am not the thinker, then how can I be responsible for choosing coffee or tea? Tuna sandwich or tomato soup? Thinking is what would have us believe that we are responsible (or not) for what happens.
6) Anything to add?
More than anything I'd like to say thank you for your guidance and patience. Reinforcing the importance of AE encouraged me to keep coming back to looking at what was actually happening, and not letting "thought" try to take over (again!). Invaluable! Thank you Vivien for sharing your time with me, I am so grateful!

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:39 am

Hi Molly,
Thank you Vivien for sharing your time with me, I am so grateful!
You are very welcome :)

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:52 am

Hi Molly,

Could you please give examples for your recent experiences to these questions?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Molly13
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Molly13 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:08 pm

Hello Vivien,

Yes!
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Everyday "I" walk or ride my bike. And this event relies on intention ("my" plan to go to a destination) and decisions about where to go. Yesterday "I" decided to ride my bike and the choice to go to the canal bike trail. As "I" ride there then seems to be a decision to turn right or left, go fast or slow, stop for a drink of water. However yesterday as a result of the looking that "I" have been doing, when I observed the riding, the turning, the drinking, I could not find a "me" that was doing those things!

"I" am responsible for turning in my projects for work. As I complete them and email them to the manager, as with the biking, it is just happening. In either of these examples "I" can't find how, who or what is responsible for making these things work, or how. But "I" somehow have lived several decades and things just keep humming along in the story of "me" without me even being involved.

One of the oddest things in this process is realizing that "I" have NEVER done anything and yet there seems to be a cohesive story of "me". At first, the thought that there is no "me" brought up a thought "how will life work if I am not in control?". What is so laughable is that the "life" that has appeared all these years has happened without a me, so why would it be any different now? All that has changed is the thought that "I" am running the show.

Please let me know if you would like an additional examples...

:-D

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Vivien
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Re: Grateful for a Guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 am

Hi Molly,

Congratulations! There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. Thank you for your willingness to look. :)

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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