Looking from multiple perspectives

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:41 pm

How does that feel? Is everything allowed?
It feels liberating, that is, from mental hang-ups. The clear silent knowing takes burdens off the worrying or preoccupied mind. It has a more significant effect on emotions or ego-centric thoughts. This may be so because these feelings or thoughts linger more.

Everything is allowed. Even so, the noticing of stressful feelings or thoughts takes away their influence. The mind does not ruminate for long. Anxiety and stress are present for shorter intervals. This decrease in mind-born problems results in an easier, fuller lived experience. It feels increasingly freeing to be present.

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:01 am

Lovely to read what you are noticing. Yes, it’s a relief. No more need to avoiding or fight against what shows up. Just silent knowing.

Can you tell me what changed since we started this conversation in normal everyday life?
What hasn’t?
What stands out the most as unexpected?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:44 pm

Hello.
Can you tell me what changed since we started this conversation in normal everyday life?
What hasn’t?
I took my time to answer this question. Daily life is slightly different in that there has been an increase in the noticing of the mind and behaviors. The separate self seems to be recognized more often. Beyond that, there is not a lot of difference.

For the last couple of years, through gradually increasing awareness from a silent unengaged perspective, life has contained less stress and more joy. This has been true at home, at work, and at school. And this is now slowly getting better again.
What stands out the most as unexpected?
Since we started this conversation, the thing that changed most was discovering that I wasn’t in control of any decisions. This was the most unexpected change. It was a rude awakening. This was a major insight.

Thank you, again. Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:01 pm

Thank you Joe.
Can you tell me how you see free will and choice now?
How decisions are made?
Write about something from current experience.

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Hello.
Can you tell me how you see free will and choice now?
Free will and choice are an imagined ability of the self-identity. The self, a belief in the form of ideas, identifies with the body and mind, and it includes the idea that it is in control of the body and the thinking process. There is no self to be found in experience. There is only being and the noticing of sensory and mental perceptions.
How are decisions made?
Decisions are not made. Life unfolds like a seed grows into a flowering plant. The self assumes that it makes decisions that drive this unfolding. However the self is just an idea. Ideas cannot think and make decisions.
Write about something from current experience.
This last writing exercise lacks much direction, so what follows is an experience during the viewing of a UFC event.
Interest in the current experience is on watching the latest mixed martial arts event on the PC. During one of the first fights, there is a feeling of tense muscles in the shoulders until this is noticed, then the shoulders relax. Breathing is shallow until it is noticed, then a deep breath follows. While the attention is on composing this passage, the fight announcers are difficult to comprehend in the background. An emotion of solidarity is felt during the speech of a winning fighter, who spoke about supporting the struggle against drug addiction. There is a feeling of pleasure with the next fighter’s skill in accomplishing a quick knockout. Thoughts concerned with the appearance of pleasure with an aggressive sport are noticed. There is a feeling of discomfort while maintaining a reclined position for too long in order to thumb-type on the phone. There’s a sensation of cool air on the skin from the ceiling fan. The abdomen feels distended not long after a heavy high-protein meal. The shoulders start to feel tense with the next fight’s action. They keep tensing up when not being noticing. Composing this passage without personal pronouns feels difficult and unusual. There’s a feeling of excitement after a spinning elbow lands successfully on an opposing fighter's jaw. "Ooh!" is uttered out loud after a fighter gets body slammed unexpectedly. The mind is distracted with the attention directed completely on the later more significant matches, and no more attention is given to describing the current experience for composing this passage.

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm

Sweet, thank you very much.
Would you say you are ready for the final questions?
Or is there any doubt, any other question that is itching for an answer?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 pm

I am ready for final questions.

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:17 pm

Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:42 am

Hello Ilona. These are my responses.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, the self-identity is not a separate entity; it is a belief in a mind-body existence as a separate entity. This belief is mere thinking, and thoughts exist as fleeting experiences. The self exists only as an illusion, imagined as a mind-body entity that is conscious with a free will to move and act in time and space. When one looks for the self, there is no self to be found in experience. Once the self is recognized as a mere thought construct, it fades away. There is no self in reality.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The belief or understanding of the mind-body as a separate, conscious, intelligent existence is a conditioned belief that assumes that it has control of the body and can decide what course of action to take. This belief is learned at a very young age through the use of language. Language assigns labels to the self and objects in relation to experience. Language attributes properties to the self that separates it as a mind-body entity. These labels attribute to the self the abilities of sensing, thinking, and performing actions on separate objects.

In my experience, while identified as the self, it feels as if I'm the doer of actions, the thinker of thoughts, or the feeler of sensations. In the flow of life, there is only being or the knowing of sensations and thoughts. From the perspective of clear, silent knowing, the self is recognized as fleeting thoughts.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
When sensations and thoughts are noticed from a disengaged sense of being, the present is sensed with a fullness of life, richer in sensory detail and clearer of mental distraction. Anxiety and mental baggage is dropped or greatly relaxed depending on the degree of distractions.

Before starting this dialogue, I was still identified as the one who controls the focus of interest or the attention of awareness. When forced to consider the question of how the focus of attention is changed, it became apparent that this sense of control was just another self-identification.

This new insight was indeed significant, such that in the last few days there has been much more noticing and less identification with the self. For several years, my only meditative practice was the observance of thinking from a silent, disengaged background. I was always too lazy or too busy to sit for this. So, whenever I noticed thinking, I would just observe my thoughts as I ran around during the day. However, a sense of self identification remained, and thinking would normally capture and constrict the sense of being into the separate self. This does not happen that often anymore.
Throughout the day, I move from one task to the other, and there is not much dwelling in thought anymore. I also seem to be experiencing gaps in memory due to this practice, but I haven’t dwelled on it.

Also, being more present is enriching experience. Yesterday, while waiting for my car tires to get rotated, I sat in a tire shop's crowded waiting area. I put on ear buds and started listening to a Led Zeppelin station on Pandora. Led Zeppelin music has always been captivating, but it was now a richer, full-bodied, more sensational experience, as if I were on drugs. I experienced a couple of songs with my eyes closed, moving my right leg, and rocking my head in rhythm with the music. Thoughts kept barging in trying to describe the experience, but they were ignored. Then thoughts about my outward appearance became overwhelming, and I had to open my eyes a little. Self conditioning still lingers, and it distracts focus away from the present experience. Nevertheless, recognition of mental commentary as mere thinking allows most of the attention to remain on the present.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last bit that pushed me over was considering the question of what moves attention? Just looking at this idea brought the realization that the self was identifying itself as the controller of attention. This was the last bit for me.
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions, intention, free will, choice and control are presumed abilities attributed to the imagined self, which is identified as a separate mind-body entity. However, the self does not exist in reality. Thus, there is nobody to decide, to choose, to intend, to will or to control the presumed variable factors of experience.

Life unfolds and it is experienced by an aware being as sensory and mental perceptions. Life unfolds like a song or a story, and it is experienced as it flows. And like a song or a story, it may be happy or sad or many variations in between. You have no responsibilities in deciding a course of action, choosing between options, or in redirecting the attention of awareness, because there is no you; therefore, there is no free will, nor the ability to control the flow of life. Life just happens.

An example of a lack decision, intent or control in my experience is mindless driving. This is where you drive home without realizing how you got home. The self usually attributes this to the brain being in autopilot.
Other examples are ideas or knowledge coming from the subconscious, from inspiration, from intuition, or from spontaneous desires or cravings. These are examples where we obtain knowledge or insight, and then we use a mental rationalization to assign responsibility to the self or to explain its mechanism.
6) Anything to add?
I just want to add that I don’t have all the answers, but I know that I am not myself. While I learned from a young age to look at the bright side of things, life is even brighter now. My life is not without difficulties, but they do not drag me down anymore. Who is there to drag down?

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Thank you very much for the answers. Sounds clear.
But can you expand on this:
I just want to add that I don’t have all the answers, but I know that I am not myself.
What do you mean you are not yourself? What are you?
Is there knowing of the essence of being? How would you describe?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:20 pm

What do you mean you are not yourself?
This is saying in a different way that the self does not exist. Language gets in the way.
What are you?
A knowing of life expressing itself.
Is there knowing of the essence of being? How would you describe?
There is an indirect knowing of the essence of being. The essence of being is aware that it is aware; it is a knowing that is always present; it is life expressing itself. It is in all of us, but thought veils it. And most people do not recognize it when they experience it.

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:13 pm

Let’s connect more to that sense of being. It’s always here. It’s always knowing of being. Feel the sense of aliveness now. Rest in that space of being.
What are other people? Are they separate from aliveness? Even if there is thinking going on, it’s the same aliveness showing up as thinking.
What do you see when you look at your closest people? Strangers?
Are they separate from aliveness?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:07 pm

Hi.
What are other people? Are they separate from aliveness?
Other people are also life expressing itself. They are not separate from aliveness.
Even if there is thinking going on, it’s the same aliveness showing up as thinking.
Thinking is not bad. It is part of life.
What do you see when you look at your closest people? Strangers?
I see other versions of me, other beings just like me.
Are they separate from aliveness?
They are expressions of life, just like me.

Love Joe

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Ilona
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby Ilona » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:08 pm

Thank you joe for clarification. I have no more questions. As you can see :)
This is a beginning of exploration that continues... there will be all kinds of unconscious stuff coming up to be seen. Keep looking!

And if you feel like helping others on this forum, once you settled, consider becoming a guide. It’s an amazing journey and it deepens realization. You get to look at this from all different angles.

Hope to see you around.
Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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joe01
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Re: Looking from multiple perspectives

Postby joe01 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:45 pm

Ilona, thank you very much for your patience and understanding.
This is a beautiful place and you are doing wonderful work.
Your help really made a difference in my clarity.

I will continue looking.
And I will stick around learning from your work.

Love Joe


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