Acceptance of the way things appear to be

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:56 am

Hi Kalina,
V: What is the AE of space? Is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
K: The experience of space seems to be a stillness. It itself has no sound, image , taste, smell or sensation, or thought. Yet those appear as an experience of movement within it.
This reply doesn’t come from looking at AE, it’s a thought interpretation, the content of a thought only.

If a sentence starts with “It seem” or “it feels like” then it a sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of thoughts.

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?
V: How is it known exactly that thoughts are appearing in space?
K: The thoughts appear in the same space that sees them. There isnt something that sees an appearance in a space other than itself.
This reply didn’t come from looking at AE. This is a thought interpretation.

What is the AE of ‘space seeing the thoughts’? – is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Is this REALLY experienced as such?
Look very carefully. Watch for visual thoughts. Is it possible that there is a visual thought showing a vast empty space?
V: What does generate thoughts?
K: They seem to appear in that which sees them, so it feels like it is the same thing in a way, like it must come from here
This is a thought speculation.
How is it known that there is something that is seeing thoughts?
Is there a thought + the knowing/seeing of it?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?

Is this seer you talk about something separate from all the rest?
Noticing happens - how do you know the seer is what notices?
Does the seer have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this seer?
Is seer something other than, different to, or separate from experience?
Can you find anything at all that is called "seer", or do you just find experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Vivien...
Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?
Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?
Nothing but the experience of the 5 senses could be found
What is the AE of ‘space seeing the thoughts’? – is it a sound, image/color, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
Is this REALLY experienced as such?
Look very carefully. Watch for visual thoughts. Is it possible that there is a visual thought showing a vast empty space?
There was no visual thoughts that arose. Nothing but the actual experience could be found. No place of seeing, just experience itself
How is it known that there is something that is seeing thoughts?
There is no one or thing seeing the thoughts. This was the experience when checked again.
Is there a thought + the knowing/seeing of it?
There is an "I" thought about seeing something, but it is just another thought
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
No. It is known as the thought is happening, not after or before
There is no division between the thought and knowing of it
Is this seer you talk about something separate from all the rest?
Noticing happens - how do you know the seer is what notices?
Does the seer have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this seer?
Is seer something other than, different to, or separate from experience?
Can you find anything at all that is called "seer", or do you just find experience?
There is no seer to be found, just experiencing

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:47 am

Hi Kalina,
No. It is known as the thought is happening, not after or before
There is no division between the thought and knowing of it
Yes, there is no separation.
There is no separate knower/watcher of thoughts.
There is just thoughtknowing as one unit.

Here is a little exercise.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

Was there an appearing visual thought?
Was the content of the visual thought (the melon) ‘real’?


The verbal and visual thoughts are real only as arising thoughts, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this clearly?


Thoughts can be looked at in 2 different ways:

- seeing the CONTENT of a thought, what is a thought ABOUT
- and only seeing the thought itself (as phenomenon taking place), as a ‘CONTAINER’

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?

Thoughts as arising thoughts (the containers) are ‘real’, but their contents (what they are ABOUT) are not. Like when you think about E.T. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “E.T.” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising visual thought of a ‘chair’ but that thought is not ‘real’. However, as an arising thought is there, it is ‘real’, but not its content (what it’s about).
Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising verbal or visual thought, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Let me know how it goes.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:43 am

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.
I tried to do this a few times, but was unable to visualise it strongly. I do experience visual thoughts come and go. But to sit and try and visualise something, doesnt seem to happen .
When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?
Yes, I have been strongly experiencing this a lot for a few days now, following another exercise you gave me . With the actual experience of thought, the thoughts are just there, but their content isnt of any interest or believed.
Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?
Yes, I see this clearly. Things such as labelling that " I am tired " or " I feel hot "
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising verbal or visual thought, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.
I noticed there is a lot of labelling. Thoughts about future things to "do" or thoughts going into past events. Things that may have happened in the day. A lot of these have visual content, and some are just thoughts. The thoughts are happening in my experience, but the content of them are not real. I see this .

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:16 am

Hi Kalina,
The thoughts are happening in my experience, but the content of them are not real. I see this .
Great.
Here are some statements based on our investigation so far. Please read them careful, and see if you are clear on them. If any of them are not totally clear, please let me know.

- In actual experience thoughts don’t come and go from anywhere. They just there when they are there. And when they are not there anymore, then they are just simply not there.
- The supposed ‘me’ has no power over thoughts. None.
- Thoughts just appear on their own, without anyone or anything doing it.
- There is nothing that is thinking thoughts. Thinking happens, or rather say thoughts appear but without a thinker. There is no thinker of thoughts.
- Thoughts have no power whatsoever. They cannot think or do anything.
- Thoughts have no volition. There might be thoughts about intentions, but not the thoughts themselves intending or wanting it. They just ‘talk’ about wanting or intending.
- In actual experience there is not even a mind. There might be thoughts about a ‘mind’, but ‘mind’ as such cannot be found.

Look at each statement carefully. Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?

Here is an exercise.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self, put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, write down the thought itself (not just a mark). If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened, I wonder what is my daughter doing in school (‘my’ daughter), etc.

Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?


During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.

Let me know what you find.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:37 pm

Here are some statements based on our investigation so far. Please read them careful, and see if you are clear on them. If any of them are not totally clear, please let me know.
Yes, from our investigation so far, there isnt anything I not clear about.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other' Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?
found that

I found that the majority of thoughts were "self" and only actually one thought I put in " other " . I tried this twice and both times came out the same. Two thoughts in " other "the 2nd time .
What I saw as the " other " thoughts were - " The wind sounds nice " , The wind is getting stronger ", and " tea "
So when I looked at the " other " thoughts , I saw that the ones relating to the wind , were actually an "I" thought ... "I like the sound of the wind " ..." I can hear the wind is getting louder " Both had labels in them, " Nice " and " stronger "
The " tea " thought , was because I had a cup of tea that had been sat for a while, so I saw that as " I need to drink my tea "
So really, there were no " other " thoughts .
During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.

Let me know what you find.
I noticed thoughts judging "my" body, and the way it looked. There were a lot about the way " I " physically felt..labelling as tired and back pain . There were thoughts about listening to "others" going into stories , and not wanting to hear them. I noticed imagined conversations with "others" and there was just general narrating of mundane things.

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:52 am

Hi Kalina,
So when I looked at the " other " thoughts , I saw that the ones relating to the wind , were actually an "I" thought ... "I like the sound of the wind " ..." I can hear the wind is getting louder " Both had labels in them, " Nice " and " stronger "
The " tea " thought , was because I had a cup of tea that had been sat for a while, so I saw that as " I need to drink my tea "
So really, there were no " other " thoughts .
Yes, nice looking.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that these narrating thoughts are always about me (some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 pm

Hi Vivien..
Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.
Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
Yes
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
what I think I am, yes
They describe my past, present and future.
Yes. Narrating on what is happening now, or relating to the past, or imagining the future
They produce a story of my life
Yes, creating a life story
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
Yes
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
yes
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world
The thoughts try to define an " I " and my relationship to the world
Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it
How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
I silently knew what tea to have, but there was a narration about it
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
N/A as it was herbal tea
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
I couldnt find any moments of choice. They just happened
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
It just happened
Can a chooser be located?
no

I looked at this all day in everything I did. I could clearly see that there was a just a doing, without a "me" doing anything. There are no thoughts that make anything happen. They are just happening. The thoughts are added to what is happening. There were only a couple of times when driving that a "me" tried to take control. It was noticed as it happened.

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:34 am

Hi Kalina,
I looked at this all day in everything I did. I could clearly see that there was a just a doing, without a "me" doing anything. There are no thoughts that make anything happen. They are just happening. The thoughts are added to what is happening. There were only a couple of times when driving that a "me" tried to take control. It was noticed as it happened.
Nice looking.

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:28 pm

Hi Vivien...
Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.
How is the movement controlled?
It isnt. There is just a knowing of it happening
Does a thought control it?
No. I even tested this by trying to control it with thought
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No, there is nobody or no thing controlling the movement that can be detected
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
A decision point cannot be found. There is just a knowing about it, and then it happens, but no thought makes it happen, nor decision. It just happens.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
There was nobody or anything that chose which hand. There was just a movement
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
no
When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
There is no thinker or doer. Just a movement
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?
As with the sunflower. There is just a movement. No mover can be found

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:07 am

Hi Kalina,
A decision point cannot be found. There is just a knowing about it, and then it happens, but no thought makes it happen, nor decision. It just happens.
Nice looking. Let’s dig a bit deeper into this.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully


Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?


Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:21 pm

HI Vivien..
Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.
What is it that is considering these options?
I only see thoughts
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully
There are only thoughts appearing, listing the pros and cons.
Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
There was a knowing it would be eaten. there was no thought that made the decision it would be eaten. The thought just arose in the knowing of it
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
No thing can be found that made the decision. It was just known it would be eaten. There was more a presence of knowing than presence of thought throughout the whole investigation. Even the thoughts that arose bore no significance or influence over what happened . I even looked at this knowing, to see if there was desire or thought secretly hiding out in it, but there wasnt. I didnt seem to care whether I ate it or not, despite the differing thoughts. But it was known I would.
How exactly the decision is made?
I only saw the knowing of it
Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?
the same movement as the movement of knowing it would be eaten

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:25 am

Hi Kalina,
No thing can be found that made the decision.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.


Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Kalina
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Kalina » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:13 pm

Hi Vivien...
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.
Yes, this is all clear
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
no
Does the body have a weight or volume?
no
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
no
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
no
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
no
Is there an inside or an outside?
no
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
it refers to colour, form, experiencing through the senses
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
it is seen as colour and shape. When the eyes close, this image is still seen, but then fades . There are differing sensations that come and go. This seen clearly with eyes closed. There is an appearance of movement with eyes open, like the sunflower moving toward the sun, as explored in a previous investigation. The colour and form is not separate from all other colours and shapes seen. There is just a seeing from the perspective of this "body"

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Vivien
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Re: Acceptance of the way things appear to be

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:58 am

Hi Kalina,
V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
K: it is seen as colour and shape. When the eyes close, this image is still seen, but then fades . There are differing sensations that come and go. This seen clearly with eyes closed. There is an appearance of movement with eyes open, like the sunflower moving toward the sun, as explored in a previous investigation. The colour and form is not separate from all other colours and shapes seen. There is just a seeing from the perspective of this "body"
Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors only.

There is ZERO AE of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct, nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the AE of colors, sensations and thoughts. Can you see this?

V: What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
K: it refers to colour, form, experiencing through the senses
If you put aside all learned information how is it known the experiencing happens through the senses?

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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