Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:10 am

let's also look at the idea of seperation,

For this exercise i need you to go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensatons come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary? Is there an inside and an outside of Life? Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?


Go out, come back and tell me what you found..

Thank you
Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:40 am

How do you know that "the self" tries to claim anything ?
Is there any self anywhere responsible of doing anything ?
Or is it just another thought saying this ?
It is a thought saying this. It feels like when certain perceptions arise, thought labels the perception as relevant to the self and a thought about the self appears from nowhere. They then combine and potentially create more thoughts and emotions.

For example if someone says the name "Neil". Thought labels it as relevant to the self and thoughts about Neil appear. If Neil is said in a perceived negative way unpleasant feeling and thoughts may follow.

These thoughts about "neil" don't correspond to anything real but this conditioned process still seems to occur within awareness.
Then close your eyes and see if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
All there is sensations arising in awareness. The only line between me and life itself is created by thoughts and labels.
If yes, where is the boundary? Is there an inside and an outside of Life? Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Thoughts can say that sensations arising from within the body are different from those that arise from outside the body. But looking feels like everything is experienced in the same place. Tightness in the my knee and the blue sky and the sound of dogs barking all arise into the same thing. Without labeling the perceptions after they happen there is not internal or external. Everything is included in the whole.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
There is no distance between the sky and the seeing of the sky. A witness would need to be static and separate from the things witnessed which can't be felt.
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
As the whole moves so does the witnessing so they do not feel separate.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
No.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:50 am

I forgot to mention that today I had a interesting experience. I was playing video games and all of a sudden I started feeling intense bliss and peace of mind. I put on happy music and spent about an hour doing random dancing. I have felt a similar feeling a couple times before in the past months usually while reading peoples accounts of awakening and non duality. It feels like what I imagine MDMA or some other drug to be like. Hard to stop laughing and I can't imagine what worrying feels like.

Anyways,not sure if it is at all related to this inquiry and looking but thought I would share. In the experience today and in the past ones the sense of self was not at all present.

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:36 pm

How do you know that "the self" tries to claim anything ?
Is there any self anywhere responsible of doing anything ?
Or is it just another thought saying this ?
It is a thought saying this. It feels like when certain perceptions arise, thought labels the perception as relevant to the self and a thought about the self appears from nowhere. They then combine and potentially create more thoughts and emotions.

For example if someone says the name "Neil". Thought labels it as relevant to the self and thoughts about Neil appear. If Neil is said in a perceived negative way unpleasant feeling and thoughts may follow.

These thoughts about "neil" don't correspond to anything real but this conditioned process still seems to occur within awareness.
Then close your eyes and see if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
All there is sensations arising in awareness. The only line between me and life itself is created by thoughts and labels.
If yes, where is the boundary? Is there an inside and an outside of Life? Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Thoughts can say that sensations arising from within the body are different from those that arise from outside the body. But looking feels like everything is experienced in the same place. Tightness in the my knee and the blue sky and the sound of dogs barking all arise into the same thing. Without labeling the perceptions after they happen there is not internal or external. Everything is included in the whole.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
There is no distance between the sky and the seeing of the sky. A witness would need to be static and separate from the things witnessed which can't be felt.
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
As the whole moves so does the witnessing so they do not feel separate.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
No.

Sending appreciation,
Neil
Very good looking Neil. I will recommend you to prepare to be a guide here with us after we finish our dialogue, your definitions are smooth and effective..

Now that you have seen self, body, control, decision, choice, witness, free will are nothing but an illusion.

Lastly i would like to ask:

If there is no time at all, can there be a cause and effect ?
If "yes" how ?
If no again how ? Can you please describe ?


Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:45 pm

I forgot to mention that today I had a interesting experience. I was playing video games and all of a sudden I started feeling intense bliss and peace of mind. I put on happy music and spent about an hour doing random dancing. I have felt a similar feeling a couple times before in the past months usually while reading peoples accounts of awakening and non duality. It feels like what I imagine MDMA or some other drug to be like. Hard to stop laughing and I can't imagine what worrying feels like.

Anyways,not sure if it is at all related to this inquiry and looking but thought I would share. In the experience today and in the past ones the sense of self was not at all present.
Lovely to hear that bliss and peace of mind experienced. It is a common reaction of laughing to this cosmic joke :) Some laugh for days. That's ok. Enjoy when it arises.
Glimpses may always happen or not, it happens to no one, it is a known experience that's all. Don't put so much attention.
Awareness embraces all feelings thoughts.

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:52 pm

You’ve done some great LOOKING throughout this exploration...thank-you for being so diligent in looking and answering questions to date. I just want to be thorough and make sure that nothing important has been missed. Here are some questions to help determine if there are any areas that may still need further exploring. Just simple and quick answers will do, you don't need to take time over them. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a thinker of thought?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:18 am

Very good looking Neil. I will recommend you to prepare to be a guide here with us after we finish our dialogue, your definitions are smooth and effective..
Thank you. I think I would be interested in potentially guiding.
If there is no time at all, can there be a cause and effect ?
If "yes" how ?
If no again how ? Can you please describe ?
Not without time and thoughts. If I get mad and punch someone in the face there is time between the anger and the punching. There is also a thought saying that they were connected after they happen but everything just happens in the now which is separate from any other time.
Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Yes. No self can be seen by directly looking.
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
All thoughts of control are an illusion. Thoughts and feelings simply arise. Without ownership or creation of these thoughts a sense of controlling anything using them would be based on a lie.

Life has no owner. Any attempt to give or take a specific form of life is being made by life itself not any individual. Life can plant a flower or squash a bug tomorrow. The human hands doing these actions belong to life not a person.
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Decisions and choices seem to be made but there is nothing real to take ownership.
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Life and awareness seem to be responsible for things but they don't feel separate from each other or anything else.
Is there a thinker of thought?
No. Just thoughts arising from somewhere or nowhere into awareness.
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
No it always was and always will be an illusion.
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
The self is not in the body and does not have a certain location. Feelings may arise and attach to thoughts of self but no one or nothing is controlling that process.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No. There is no real divide in awareness between "internal" and "external" stimuli.
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
There is a sense of growing freedom and peace.

The contents of awareness can feel calm or like a roller coaster but a roller coaster would be much scarier if "you" thought "you" were responsible for driving the cars.

Thoughts about an apparent self still arise but they can be seen for what they are. Stories about something that doesn't exist. There may come a time when less of these thoughts arise but no one or nothing can control this. Everything simply is as it is.

The feeling of letting go of the reigns of life is becoming more apparent. The reigns were never real and pretending to hold them and believing that any choices could be made took a toll.
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
It feels like something is letting go of control over life that it never had. If fear and uncertainty arise are there any ways to invite them into awareness instead of pushing them away. What is their purpose?

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:39 am

Sharp, crystal clear, beautiful looking Neil!
I'm so happy when i see that thoughts tuned in to a more clear Looking..
Life and awareness seem to be responsible for things but they don't feel separate from each other or anything else.
As you said they are not separate, there is never 2. Thoughts make a division which means nothing in reality.
These are just words. Words create an illusory sense of (so called) location and division.
It is not even one. It only is. It just is the best we can say in words.
It feels like something is letting go of control over life that it never had. If fear and uncertainty arise are there any ways to invite them into awareness instead of pushing them away. What is their purpose?
The answer to question "why" is only more thoughts.
Thought will immediately try to attach a reason from other conditioned thoughts.
Why-Because points to story of cause and effect.
"It just arise" is the only answer i can give for your "purpose" question :)

Clear ?

If all clear and you are ready i would like to give you our final questions Neil ?

It does not mean that road ends here :)
Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing..
e core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Sending much love dear Neil..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:11 am

If all clear and you are ready i would like to give you our final questions Neil ?
I'm ready for the final questions.
Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing..
e core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
Thank you for this insight and advice. There are feelings of the unraveling, the knots that remain, and looking is becoming more natural.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:25 am

Ok Dear Neil,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked. Thank you

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:49 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
There is nothing real, nothing solid, nothing with agency, and nothing with any real characteristics behind the illusion and story of the separate self. Direct looking and experience shows us this clearly. It was always this way.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of the self starts when we are children. It's a story humans tell themselves and put in a realm that is not subject to any questioning. When thoughts of the self are treated as referring to a real thing the illusion and story grows stronger and harder to shake.

I see the "self" now as just another thought. The thought still tries to play tricks on awareness but that's all they are. Tricks, illusions, stories that are not real. Something that isn't real can influence awareness when it is seen through. Santa Claus seems real until you see your parents buy the presents. That doesn't mean the idea of Santa Claus is gone from the world it is just seen for what it really is.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels like the end of a journey and the start of a new one. The illusion of the self has been seen through like a flat earther viewing the round earth from space.

The flatness of the earth that was never really there. This insight is slowly giving way to freedom and peace.

No one needs to worry about the self because there is nothing to worry about and no one to do the worrying. Thoughts will still arise from nowhere about the self but less additional thoughts arise from the unknown to try and attach themselves to the first one.

There is no one to blame, nothing to control, no expectations, and no future for the self. There is only what is and what can be experienced now in awareness.

The free-fall into what is effortless, subtle and all encompassing. The threads of self and all it's stories are unraveling leaving nothing but space in their wake. Space to be filled with nothing and everything. Possibility and fate all in one.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Concepts, thoughts, language and beliefs are all houses of cards. Real only because they stand in relation to other and ready to topple over under the force of direct experience.

You can't rely on belief for the truth. The truth does not need a belief or a concept or a description. The truth is awareness and awareness is the truth. Dividing the world and experience with imaginary distinctions is a game. A game that poses as an answer but represents infinite questions and uncertainty.

When my guide asked me to set aside all these thoughts, concepts and beliefs I saw them for what they really were and the all encompassing mystery that was hiding behind them.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Life makes life happen. The universe takes care of the universe. Awareness is responsible for awareness.

The body is part of life and takes care of itself. Thoughts appear from the unknown great space. No thought, feeling or action that has its origins in such an unknown space can be claimed as yours. The fingers type, the words come. Life is living itself I'm NOT living it.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I doesn't exist and is responsible for nothing. Thoughts and feelings may tell their stories and try to claim actions if they want but that is all they are. Stories.

Reality doesn't need stories and no one is responsible for anything.

6) Anything to add?

The temptation to gather ideas, concepts and beliefs in order to see the world as it is is very strong. It's so freeing to see that simply looking and experiencing can lead to so much insight.

Loosing beliefs and information can be like loosing chains, boundaries and prisons. When life is usually experienced from inside such confines we can look to the very things that bind us for comfort and security. Looking directly means looking into the unknown and that is were freedom, peace and truth lie.

Thank you so much Adil! Your guiding was essential to me! I appreciate your time spent and the gift of insight you have given. I still feel like I have a lot of looking to do and more threads to unravel but there is a clarity about who will be doing these things. NEIL is gone and NO ONE is here to stay.

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:56 am

Thank you for your beautiful answers Neil,
now my guide friends will take a look to our conversation to see if anything we left uncovered..
Then we will be inviting you to our facebook aftercare groups..

Sending much love.

It was a pleasure to work with you.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:32 am

Dear Neil,
There are no further questions from my dear guide friends and that you will receive a PM from the forum inviting you to the FB groups and info on becoming a guide.
Also we will find each other on facebook
Sending much love.
Thank you.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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