Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed May 22, 2019 9:57 am

The struggle feels like a sensation and a thought. If the sensation and thought are left alone they will pass like all sensations and thoughts.
yes if it is felt in the body it is sensation and there is thought about that sensation saying something.
So when you look at that sensation labelled struggle directly you will see that it is just a sensation.
A vibration when it is not labelled as "bad, trouble, negative, mustn't be here".

Awaraness embraces all feelings thoughts. Sensation +thought labelled struggle also arises. But awareness cannot be overwhelmed or changed by what appears inside it. Instead of going to the content of fear, rotate your attention to that awareness which let's that struggle arise. It is peace.

Waiting to hear from you

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am

But i would like to hear also the results of writing exercise with the "i" and wihtout the" i on Ilona's article..
How was it felt writing with "i" and without "i".
It feels more free and truthful to write without the I. The "I" isn't necessary for those things to be happening so why write it or think it that way?
Awaraness embraces all feelings thoughts. Sensation +thought labelled struggle also arises. But awareness cannot be overwhelmed or changed by what appears inside it. Instead of going to the content of fear, rotate your attention to that awareness which let's that struggle arise. It is peace.
This feels true to me and is something I want to embrace. If awareness is like a screen of a computer the computer screen doesn't care what kind of images arise in it. The screen is at peace when showing a sunset or a bombing. The screen doesn't care that those labels are attached to good or bad or ugly or beautiful.

I will try to let go of the content of awareness and shift focus to the awareness itself.

I'll try again with the exercise as I sit here and type.

Feeling the breath go in and out. sensations=(internal feelings that accompany the breath) + breath=(thought label)
Noticing the sunset image in the back of the post screen. perception (light,colors and patterns) thought label = (sunset+ screen)
Typing this sentence out. Sensation= ( fingers on the keyboard) Perception = (Noise from the keyboard) thought label (keyboard)
Looking and smelling candle in the room. Perception- (light and smell) Candle (thought label)

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Thu May 23, 2019 12:39 pm

But i would like to hear also the results of writing exercise with the "i" and wihtout the" i on Ilona's article..
How was it felt writing with "i" and without "i".
It feels more free and truthful to write without the I. The "I" isn't necessary for those things to be happening so why write it or think it that way?
Awaraness embraces all feelings thoughts. Sensation +thought labelled struggle also arises. But awareness cannot be overwhelmed or changed by what appears inside it. Instead of going to the content of fear, rotate your attention to that awareness which let's that struggle arise. It is peace.
This feels true to me and is something I want to embrace. If awareness is like a screen of a computer the computer screen doesn't care what kind of images arise in it. The screen is at peace when showing a sunset or a bombing. The screen doesn't care that those labels are attached to good or bad or ugly or beautiful.

I will try to let go of the content of awareness and shift focus to the awareness itself.

I'll try again with the exercise as I sit here and type.

Feeling the breath go in and out. sensations=(internal feelings that accompany the breath) + breath=(thought label)
Noticing the sunset image in the back of the post screen. perception (light,colors and patterns) thought label = (sunset+ screen)
Typing this sentence out. Sensation= ( fingers on the keyboard) Perception = (Noise from the keyboard) thought label (keyboard)
Looking and smelling candle in the room. Perception- (light and smell) Candle (thought label)

Sending appreciation,
Neil
Yes Neil
It feels more free and truthful to write without the I. it is only the language as you see.

And thank you for the breaking down to ae exercise.

We will always be needing to perceive things this way so it is better for you to keep attention to the Actual Experience instead of the thought story itself.

Let's go on..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Thu May 23, 2019 12:51 pm

Image


What is here in the picture ? A thought immidiately labels as "THIS IS BATMAN"
But is it really ?
What is real in this picture more then color black+blue+grey+white+red ?
What is actual when you don't go to thought story ?
Is Batman real ?
Does he really exist ? Is it a part of reality ?


If not,

What is the difference of the self ?
Is there an actual self?


Look!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Sat May 25, 2019 3:17 am

But is it really ?
No it is not really Batman.
What is real in this picture more then color black+blue+grey+white+red ?
What is more real than the color? Shape and the background.
What is actual when you don't go to thought story ?
Perception of shapes, colors and background.
Is Batman real ?
No.
Does he really exist ? Is it a part of reality ?
No. It is not possible to directly experience a real version of the thought and story about Batman.
What is the difference of the self ?
Ultimately there is no difference between Batman and the self. Both are stories and neither can be found in direct perception.
Is there an actual self?
No. Nothing can be seen when looking for a self except a story which does not exist in reality.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sat May 25, 2019 11:16 am

What is real in this picture more then color black+blue+grey+white+red ?
What is more real than the color? Shape and the background.
What is actual when you don't go to thought story ?
Perception of shapes, colors and background.
Really ?
What says that "it is a shape, colors and a background" ?

Look better now again Neil..

Is there a shape and a background ?

Is it even color(s) ?

Or is it only a thought labeling "what is" as multiple colors / shape / background ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sat May 25, 2019 11:17 am

Is Batman real ?
No.
Does he really exist ? Is it a part of reality ?
No. It is not possible to directly experience a real version of the thought and story about Batman.
What is the difference of the self ?
Ultimately there is no difference between Batman and the self. Both are stories and neither can be found in direct perception.
Is there an actual self?
No. Nothing can be seen when looking for a self except a story which does not exist in reality.
Sure.
Brilliant looking thank you!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 am

After you answer last blue marked questions Neil..Let's look at thought..
As you see there is constant labeling of "what is.." by thought.
But what is this thought ? And does it happen by will or automatic ?
Let's look..

Sit down relax for 10 mins. Drop any kind of distractions..

Focus on any kind of thought appearing and ask questions below one by one and answer please..

Wait for the next thought and look,

where is it coming from and where is it going?

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?

Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another thought :)

Is there a thinker?

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Do you really have control over thoughts?

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do ?


Waiting for your answers..
Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Sun May 26, 2019 4:40 am

Really ?What says that "it is a shape, colors and a background" ?
This is tough for me. I guess conditioning and learning that I did as a very young child say that the light is organized into shapes and colors and background. Really it is just light.
Is there a shape and a background ?
Without being able to perceive shapes and colors I would not be able to answer this question. Written language is dependent on shape (words) and color (text vs background). How does one evaluate the illusory nature of language, shapes and colors while at the same time using them?
Is it even color(s) ?
Humans need to perceive color to survive in both evolutionary and modern terms. How would one know what is food if you lost the ability to perceive shape and color?

Colors also have objective scientific qualities. Math and science are dependent on thought and belief but without them we couldn't be communicating with each other.
Or is it only a thought labeling "what is" as multiple colors / shape / background ?
To my knowledge very basic organisms ie. insects can determine shape and color and need them to survive. I can't imagine insects are thinking or labeling in the sense we use those words.

where is it coming from and where is it going?
It comes from something outside awareness or consciousness and returns to nothing after it leaves.
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
No.
Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another thought :)
No you can't stop a thought from coming. You can only react to it in different ways once it's already there.
Is there a thinker?
No. A thinker would imply at least some control over thoughts which is clearly not the case.
Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
The pop in by themselves. Sometimes it feels like you can follow down the path a thought is leading or not but no one is really making this "choice".
Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?
No. It's possible to switch back and forth very quickly but its still one at a time no matter how fast.
Do you really have control over thoughts?
Not a bit. If "I" had any control over "my" thoughts they would all be happy or beneficial to me.
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
It comes from the same place as all the other thoughts but is special. Certain thoughts and beliefs have more potential to effect feelings in awareness than others. For example the thought my mother or wife is more emotionally charged than the thought hamburger.
Can a thought think?
No. That isn't seen.
What can a thought do ?
By itself, nothing. In combination with a mind that believes it, every human achievement and horror.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sun May 26, 2019 12:40 pm

Thanks for the answers Neil..
I ll be writing for your answers tomorrow but meanwhile
I want you to answer this direct question:

What is I ?
What is the actual experience of a self?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Mon May 27, 2019 5:29 am

What is I ?
A thought, story, idea and label all rolled into one. By itself it has no power or existence. Only when the mind believes it is there is it "real".
What is the actual experience of a self?
Awareness can experience the self in many ways. Before direct looking it felt like something more real was generating a the thought/story/idea of "self". After direct looking it feels like nothing generates these things and the "self" story is not very meaningful.

People used to have powerful and shared thoughts and ideas around Gods like Zeus. This didn't make them real because there was never any direct evidence or seeing of such Gods.

Their behavior ie. building a temple, killing a goat was real but the story it was based on it was false.

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Mon May 27, 2019 9:33 am

Really ?What says that "it is a shape, colors and a background" ?
This is tough for me. I guess conditioning and learning that I did as a very young child say that the light is organized into shapes and colors and background. Really it is just light.
Yeah the story can be anything.
As you say it is just light. even terms like "light" "color" are labels. It is "what is".

Is it even color(s) ?
Humans need to perceive color to survive in both evolutionary and modern terms. How would one know what is food if you lost the ability to perceive shape and color?

Colors also have objective scientific qualities. Math and science are dependent on thought and belief but without them we couldn't be communicating with each other.
Yes this is what we try to do here dear Neil. Unlearning. We try to see what is as what is without labels.
"This" has nothing to do with science. What is science anyway ?
What is the actual experience of "science" ? Just limited- not stable definition of "this"
How can we know if we cannot communicate without them ? It is not our business.

As you see these are thought stories..
Let's focus on what is here and now :)

Or is it only a thought labeling "what is" as multiple colors / shape / background ?
To my knowledge very basic organisms ie. insects can determine shape and color and need them to survive. I can't imagine insects are thinking or labeling in the sense we use those words.
Forget about your knowledge Neil :) We don't need knowledge. We will only look and see now :)
How do you know instects ? how can you know they think or not ?
Because other people say so ? Because it is written somewhere?

Ignore what you heard - knew - believe now NEil
Just focus on your direct - actual experience for real seeing!
And in real seeing there is no "i" self" anywhere..

Sending much love, let's go on..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Mon May 27, 2019 10:07 am

What is I ?

A thought, story, idea and label all rolled into one. By itself it has no power or existence. Only when the mind believes it is there is it "real".
Good looking. Thank you :)

What is mind anyway ? Isn't it nothing but another thought ?

What is the actual experience of a self?

Awareness can experience the self in many ways. Before direct looking it felt like something more real was generating a the thought/story/idea of "self". After direct looking it feels like nothing generates these things and the "self" story is not very meaningful.

Sure Neil it is just another thought.
So are you aware of this Neil, just now you said "thought" for "your" "self" ? :)
Sure. Neil is just a thought.
and on the previous you answered the question "What can a thought do ? " as "By itself, nothing."
Can you see you have no doer ship, idea of me arises and subsides. It has nothing do with you.



People used to have powerful and shared thoughts and ideas around Gods like Zeus. This didn't make them real because there was never any direct evidence or seeing of such Gods.

Sure this didn't make them real but also telling these stories does not make them real.
Stories..Stories..
Their behavior ie. building a temple, killing a goat was real but the story it was based on it was false.
So what happens if you stop believing to the story ?
You stop killing goats :)
If there is no "i" what is there to protect ? To be afraid of ?
What is the fear protecting ?

:)

Sending much love
Let's move on. .
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Mon May 27, 2019 10:11 am

Another simple experiment to highlight the difference between actual experience and the stories thought tells about experience.
Look at some object(s) in the room.
Hold up "your" hand so the objects are now covered.
Notice that a thought may say there are objects hidden behind the hand.

In actual experience are there objects “hidden behind the hand”?

Let’s say, for example, that the object ‘hidden by the hand’ is the TV remote. So in that moment the colour labelled ‘TV remote’ is not AE, there are only thoughts about a TV remote that are appearing – so ‘TV remote’ it is imaginary/story. When ‘hand’ moves, colour labelled ‘TV remote’ is seen…then the AE of COLOUR labelled ‘TV remote’ is the actual experience and is not imaginary.

Can you see the difference?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:46 am

What is the fear protecting ?
A story about the self that has no existence in reality or direct seeing.
If there is no "i" what is there to protect ? To be afraid of ?
If there is no "I" there is not much to protect. Maybe the body that somehow produces awareness needs protecting. I don't need to protect "I" form harmful words of other people because the words are directed towards nothing. "I" still am not planning to walk in front of a moving car though.
In actual experience are there objects “hidden behind the hand”?
No. Anything behind the hand is no longer in direct awareness.
Can you see the difference?
Yes i can see the difference. The remote becomes a story or concept once it is hidden from seeing.
What is mind anyway ? Isn't it nothing but another thought ?
Thoughts can't think so if the mind is just a thought what produces thought? If thoughts come from nothing did beings like Eisenstein have a unique relationship with nothing to produce their revolutionary thought theories?

Question- If someone suffers from visual or auditory hallucinations are these actual direct experiences more real to that person than the quiet empty room most other people would observe?

What about a person on hallucinogenic drugs. If I took LSD would my direct seeing and awareness be that of reality?
( this is just theoretical question I'm not interested in those drugs)

Sending appreciation,
Neil


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