There has never ever been a chooser. So just by seeing that there has none, what bodily effect should appear?You’re right about the consequences. There is a thought that ”seeing” this should have a consequence in the form of a bodily effect that clearly separates intellectual understanding (no real bodily effect) from experiential understanding (expected to have strong effect).
Does a bodily effect is needed in order to see that there is no chooser?
Even science had discovered that decision and free will are just illusions. Here is a few minutes long youtube video about this. Usually, I don’t like showing this because at the second half of the video the explanation of the self is really off. Scientists discovered that this is just an illusion, but then they try to interpret it through the belief in the self :)
Yes, this might be a false expectation.”I” think this thought is also what makes answering the other questions hard. Is there a way of differentiating ”clear seeing” from mere surface-level intellectual understanding? In the past, ”insights” have been accompanied by some clear changes in sensations - perhaps these experiences are giving rise to expectations.
Does seeing that there is no self would require a change in sensation?
Does a change in sensation is needed in order to see that there has never been a self?
So there is an expectation that the illusion of the chooser will stop appearing? When it appears it will never be taken as real?There is thought (expectation) that the belief should disappear if one wants to say that ”non-existence of chooser” is clearly seen.
Do you expect that the illusion of the self will never appear again? Or it never will be taken as real?I guess there is still some identification with the thought that I exist, even though where this identification exactly happens is not that clear at least for me.
For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self (or the sense of a chooser) will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve (over many years).
In order to thoughts be able to know sensations, thoughts have to be aware. But is this so?DE: After sensations, sometimes there appear thoughts that contain a label of the sensations. There is thought that this is how sensations are known by thoughts.
Is the thought label ‘sensation’ aware?
Or is the thought label itself is ‘being awared’?
In order to say that the image know about the sound, the image has to be aware. But is this so?An image regarding a source of sound arises quite more confidently than a thought labeling some body sensations. So sometimes, yes.
Is the image ‘about the location of the sound’ aware?
Or is the image itself is ‘being awared’?
But just because the content of a thought contains the name/word sensation, does this make the thought aware?I notice some difficulty with these does X know Y type of questions, because I’m not sure what is e.g. meant by sensation knowing a thought. There are sensations and there are thoughts. Both appear quite independently. But thought content seems to often contain names for sensations, while sensations are just sensations.
Thought: there should be no more thoughts about I am/I do...V: What would need to happen to say without any doubt that the illusion of the self has seen through?S: Thought: life should seem as it is happening in autopilot...Everything should feel like ”a flow”...
These are HUGE and UNREALISTIC expectation!
Flow is a state. Seeing through the self is NOT a state. It’s an experiential knowing/understanding that behind the words ‘I’ or self, there is nothing. They don’t point to anything.
But just because the self seen through, it doesn’t mean it will stop appearing. It WON’T!
And the thought of “I am” and “I do” definitely won’t stop appearing at all. Expecting this just would lead to big disappointment. We are not after a special state where there are no more thoughts about me, and everything seems to flow autopilot. This might happen to some for a period of time, but this state will definitely end, and this is not the aim of this investigation. These states are valued a lot by some, but actually they don’t matter to much. Since states come and go. But seeing through the self don’t come and go. However, he illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.
Yes, but falling for the illusion can happen much more often than one might expect. It can last for even hours several times during the day. And why? It’s because every time an emotion is triggered (by some circumstances or because of certain thoughts coming up), the self is activated. So whenever there is frustration, wanting or not wanting something, expecting something, having anger, resentment, feeling hurt, disliking something / somebody, etc. the self is there immediately. Since all these emotions are on behalf of the self. And after seeing no-self, all these conditioned issues need to be worked through, otherwise whenever these emotions arise the self comes with them. Humans are very often triggered (many-many times a day) and those triggering reactions can last from minutes to hours or even day or longer, meaning that the self is there and believed to be real for minutes, hours or days while those triggered reactions are functioning.
Taking the self as real, is also a conditioned habit of thinking. It’s a habit of the ‘mind’. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.
Haven’t this moments of clear seeing happened several times already?V: What is missing? Is there anything missing to seeing through the self?S: Thought: a clear, single moment of knowing this to be true... A way to know/”measure” understanding.
Do you just want this clear seeing be on for 24/7 to the rest of your life?
Yes, exactly. And since these expectations are very high, when what is happening is compared with these expectations, there is a thought conclusion (which is believed by the way), that this is NOT IT.At the moment, there is a thought that there is often a lot of identification with thoughts and their contents, which makes direct looking hard and distorts it. As if there are expectations of how things should be and then perceptions are tried to be fitted to them.
Is there resistance to reading my comments about expectations?
Or can you accept that the ‘first stage’ of awakening is might not what you expect?