Will it work for me...?

[MarcF]

If you look closely: Are these two Marcs really two sides of a self? Or just two thoughts (with sub-thoughts) that trigger two different feeling states?

just 2 thoughts, you are right. 2 thoughts triggering 2 different states, an anxious feeling, and a peaceful one.

Is there somebody who is refusing "self-ing" in your experience, or is there only the thought:

only the thought... bringing more thoughts

Is there something behind these thoughts and feelings? Or are these thoughts and feelings arising in this aware space that is always present?

nothing behind those. they just arise, triggered by other thoughts, when I let myself think about life, the process, frustration. they just occur.

I start to look more, just look, I see things as they are, people moving, glass on windows, smelling the air, listening at sounds... I manage to let thoughts pass and just look.when I do, there is nothing else but things to see.

[Ingen]

I start to look more, just look, I see things as they are, people moving, glass on windows, smelling the air, listening at sounds... I manage to let thoughts pass and just look.

Sounds good! And this is all that really can be known. Everything else is stories...

when I do, there is nothing else but things to see.

What is there when you don't look? When mental state no.2 is happening, thoughts are streaming in, and you forget to look?
Is there a you doing this thinking? Is there a you that can "get lost in thoughts", or is it just the thoughts which are there, until they disappear again?

[MarcF]

What is there when you don't look? When mental state no.2 is happening, thoughts are streaming in, and you forget to look?
Is there a you doing this thinking? Is there a you that can "get lost in thoughts", or is it just the thoughts which are there, until they disappear again?

there are thoughts streaming in, starting to feed on each other, getting grip on my emotional body, rooting me in the thinking, until they disappear again.

I had an interesting moment tonight.
got a phone call from my wife while I was at work, she was bored sitting home doing nothing. I asked questions about my little one, if she slept, all fine and so, anyway, to cut a long story short, the end of our conversation brought up hundreds of thoughts raising despair and anger.
then I started to look around, and I saw, people working, cutting, concentrated on their own story, I looked intensely at the shine of the tables, smelled the flavors in the air, looked and looked.
then all was cool, heartbeat went back to normal, story was like gone in the wind, it was no more important.
I start looking...

[Ingen]

I can see there happened something since our chat! Stepping out of the bubble...

there are thoughts streaming in, starting to feed on each other,

Yes. That is what they do.

getting grip on my emotional body, rooting me in the thinking,

Your what? Who's emotional body? Rooting whom?
What is in your mind that is not thoughts?

until they disappear again.

Yes. They appear, they disappear.
Without the belief in a self they have nothing to cling to, nothing to protect.

This is also what happened after the telephone conversation you write about:

conversation brought up hundreds of thoughts raising despair and anger.

Impulses trigger thoughts. Quite mechanically.
The belief in a you that has to protect your interests, functions like velcro for them. They circle around it and, as you said above, "feed on each other". Although in reality there is NOTHING BUT these thoughts.

I looked intensely at the shine of the tables, smelled the flavors in the air, looked and looked.
then all was cool, heartbeat went back to normal, story was like gone in the wind, it was no more important.

Wonderful. Back to the reality of the moment. That's the way.

But. I want to make sure you don't use this as a technique to make you feel better. This won't work in the long run, because the "self-ing" thoughts are precisely those which lead you away from the moment. Those that want things to be different.

Let me ask bluntly: Do you exist?

[MarcF]

Impulses trigger thoughts. Quite mechanically.

if there is no me, there are no impulses, then no thoughts?!

But. I want to make sure you don't use this as a technique to make you feel better. This won't work in the long run, because the "self-ing" thoughts are precisely those which lead you away from the moment. Those that want things to be different.

it started with a thought: get a grip, live the present! look! then, I saw intensely, without any thought, the mechanics of everything around, but yes it started with a self-ing thought to cool down.

Let me ask bluntly: Do you exist?

let me be honest, with this one, you caught me "off guard, like a boxer getting knocked down.
since I read this question, I was drawn into thoughts! what to answer? it seems it drew me in a recess, a deny, so I have to answer I believe I am. I couldn't look nor see anything today, at all, because I was looking for something, an answer somewhere outside.
like if the key of a door had been lost all day. there is a self fighting for identity. I didn't know what to look at, to see what?! why?...
it was a bad day, full of impulses and thoughts...

The belief in a you that has to protect your interests, functions like velcro for them. They circle around it and, as you said above, "feed on each other". Although in reality there is NOTHING BUT these thoughts.

very true, I spent the day to protect my interests, my idea of needs, and thoughts fed on it throughout the day. I got blind!
and yes, there is nothing than thoughts, nothing else.

[Ingen]

if there is no me, there are no impulses, then no thoughts?!

As long as we are alive, there are impulses, and there are thoughts.

it started with a thought: get a grip, live the present! look! then, I saw intensely, without any thought, the mechanics of everything around, but yes it started with a self-ing thought to cool down.

That's fine. That was a good thought then.

I couldn't look nor see anything today, at all, because I was looking for something, an answer somewhere outside. like if the key of a door had been lost all day. there is a self fighting for identity. I didn't know what to look at, to see what?! why?...
it was a bad day, full of impulses and thoughts...

Don't try to get rid of thoughts. (Haven't I written this before?)
Look at thoughts like you look at wheather: White clouds come and go, dark clouds come and go.
Thoughts will never disappear. But their content doesn't have to be believed. Instead of engaging with the content of the thought, watch how it "tries" to suggest the existence of a vulnerable I.

We describe the belief in self with the belief in Santa Claus, but it is a lot more ingrained in your system, a bit like a parasite, which doesn't want to be discovered and tries to hide its non-existence, i.e. that it is only a thought.

very true, I spent the day to protect my interests, my idea of needs, and thoughts fed on it throughout the day. I got blind!
and yes, there is nothing than thoughts, nothing else.

Once you really see that there is nobody "having" interests and needs, but there are ONLY thoughts about interests and needs, they can't make you blind anymore!

Watch these thoughts: "I have to protect my interest", "I should feel better" etc.
Is there something thinking these thoughts, or do they just appear in awareness, as all other thoughts do?

When you LOOKED at your surroundings, there was no seer, only the seen, right?
It is the same with thoughts. No thinker, only thoughts.

Watch the mechanics of thoughts, curiously, like a researcher. Don't get distracted by their content.
How does the I-thought work?

[MarcF]

That's fine. That was a good thought then.

what about ambition? thoughts of getting better in all levels of life? why trying to get better if we are alive, fully?

Don't try to get rid of thoughts. (Haven't I written this before?)
Look at thoughts like you look at wheather: White clouds come and go, dark clouds come and go.

I was trying to look! but yes, now you mention it, aim was to get rid of thoughts... :-(
I can understand better this metaphor of clouds passing, this talks to me clearly

But their content doesn't have to be believed. Instead of engaging with the content of the thought, watch how it "tries" to suggest the existence of a vulnerable I.

it's a bit like the Matrix movie!
all is a "make believe", we chose to see or to dream.

We describe the belief in self with the belief in Santa Claus, but it is a lot more ingrained in your system

what, Santa doesn't exist? ...

Is there something thinking these thoughts, or do they just appear in awareness, as all other thoughts do?

my Flesh body, its brain, are thinking these thoughts. what about our body, we live with it, thoughts are made of electric impulses through the brain, connections, and so on. even if we are nothing, once liberated, I still have to carry a body with its functions. isn't it ?
Now yes, thoughts appear as all other thoughts, from nowhere, bringing the I to light.

It is the same with thoughts. No thinker, only thoughts.

but what about good, constructive thoughts, creativity generated in a think tank session for example, or thinking of a book we read, histories we learned. most of time you initiate those thoughts by desire, need (when you give schoolwork to the kids).., it doesn't just appear from nowhere! are there 2 kinds of thoughts? controlled and uncontrolled?!

[Ingen]

what about ambition? thoughts of getting better in all levels of life? why trying to get better if we are alive, fully?

Ambitious thoughts are thoughts, and they are endorsed by society. They happen as long as they happen. Other kinds of thoughts are: "Do things because they are fun."or "it feels right to do this".

t's a bit like the Matrix movie!
all is a "make believe", we chose to see or to dream.

Very much so. Which pill do you want to take? red or blue?

what, Santa doesn't exist? ...

Now think hard! :)

but what about good, constructive thoughts, creativity generated in a think tank session for example, or thinking of a book we read, histories we learned. most of time you initiate those thoughts by desire, need (when you give schoolwork to the kids).., it doesn't just appear from nowhere! ?!

Life is creative!

even if we are nothing, once liberated, I still have to carry a body with its functions. isn't it ?

What? Who has to carry a body??????? How should that work?

my Flesh body, its brain, are thinking these thoughts. what about our body, we live with it, thoughts are made of electric impulses through the brain, connections, and so on.

Thoughts are electrical clouds happening in the brain.

are there 2 kinds of thoughts? controlled and uncontrolled

Only uncontrolled. Like clouds in the sky.
What is happening between us now is exchange of thoughts. We are not separate. I have some pretty strong thunderclouds here, called "direct perception", "is it true", and "LOOK", which are blowing over to you and chasing the former thought clouds away. Your cloud called "believe in self" is slowly dissolving. And it was never yours to start with.

[MarcF]

Dear dear dear...
today, I understood many things you mean. I managed to OBSERVE thoughts coming, playing and going to another field or subject. as you said, like clouds, dark or white, it comes and go!
I understood there were unrelated, fun thoughts, and others trying to involve the self as an actor, or victim, or hero of any story passing by, whichever would cling to the moment, create an "I am this or that" feelings, triggering more thoughts, impulses, etc, a vicious circle...
It was pretty exciting, like a veil moving off the view. glimpses... as I got excited and started to analyze, think again...lol
it's a paradox, since we communicate about thoughts, I think even more, or am I just conscious of something happening normally in the background?!
now I know what you mean by OBSERVE!
Thank you!

[Ingen]

Good to hear. Yes, it is fun to observe how thoughts are trying to "sculpt a self". More fun than to always feel like "drowning in thoughts".
Can you find a you that could be drowning in thoughts? Is there a self that is not these thoughts?

[MarcF]

Can you find a you that could be drowning in thoughts? Is there a self that is not these thoughts?

No, only thoughts whirling in and about, trying to built a miserable self, a small ME, taking all the attention.
thoughts are all around, it's fun to look at them, yes.
it becomes easier...wow.
it's not a 24/7, but it sinks slowly in, I watch.

[Ingen]

only thoughts whirling in and about, trying to built a miserable self, a small ME, taking all the attention.

Yes, yes, yes. That's what is happening. Thoughts are building a small me, a grandiose me, a miserable me, an awakened me. The variations are endless. And – as far as I can see - it doesn't stop. Just as optical illusions keep working, the imaginary self keeps getting built. But that doesn't make it true, and you know that.

I would like you to take a look at this sentence from your very first post:

I believe that somewhere I lost track of the reality, who I am really, as my constructions of self only tend to hide the real me.

Could you say something about this statement in the light of your new discoveries?

[MarcF]

I believe that somewhere I lost track of the reality, who I am really, as my constructions of self only tend to hide the real me.


Could you say something about this statement in the light of your new discoveries?

the answer to my quest is in this statement "constructions of self only hides the real me", it is like having the key to a door without seeing it in your hand. thoughts are what makes one lose track of the reality, building on imagination each day a different life.
we all live many lives, this way, loosing or winning, for a day a year or a lifetime, hunting for the real one, that is still so near but yet out of reach...

[Ingen]

my constructions of self only tend to hide the real me.

And what about the real me you were trying to discover in the first post?

Is there a self in any shape, state or form?

[MarcF]

No, of course not. the Me was the essence, the spiritual being, the wind.

I keep discovering new things, new lights. I had a great moment this morning, after an extremely bad night which I didn't sleep.
I was grumpy on time to go to work, but then I realized I was blaming the world and all for nothing. Life was at it should be, and especially, that the night and its hardship was gone in the past, and it was no point to continue carrying it in the present. Did some thinking, but lots of insights, more in the feelings.
I realized how illusions get a grip on every moment, that I was a fool to look the big thoughts, the obvious, and that the small ones were the insidious and dangerous ones, making your day a Hell.
then, I didn't get tired at all in my work, was singing for no reason and enjoyed a lot every bit.

I cracked down the fact that most fights and unpleasant feelings could be avoided if we don't give ground to the seed, which is "self-ing" thoughts... for me, it was the: "I slept bad, it's your fault, what I am gonna do all day... and so on that did it! "
that's great!