Die before you die

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Wed May 29, 2019 12:57 am

Hi Rachel,
If I swap radio for song, as I think of radio as the actual machine that's plugged in. So if I say I hear a song instead. But actually what is a song -, sounds, which mind might label, music, or words. But 'song' is not the actual experience of a song. Music and words are not ae of music or words. Words cannot capture the experience of sound. So yes I can see, radio or song, neither are actual experience.
Great looking.

Let’s try the following experiment to help make what is being pointed at, clearer.

We are looking at the raw experience labelled as sound and ignoring the thought ABOUT what the sound is as described by thought.

For this experiment you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, then here is a link to a clock on Youtube. Do this experiment several times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Take in a couple of deep breaths and close your eyes.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE all thoughts and mental images about what seems to be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?

Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?

Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
Do you find a clock beyond the sound?

In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?
What do you find?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Wed May 29, 2019 3:46 pm

Hi,
Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?.
No not at all.
. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
No.
. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
No, and beyond the sound, nothing, silence.
.
In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?
What do you find?
No evidence sound is caused by a clock. In ae experience, I hear the sound, and a mental image arises of a clock, I return my focus back to the sound. In ae , ' tick tock, tick tock', that is all.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Wed May 29, 2019 11:55 pm

Hi Rachel,

Let’s continue with the clock and try to find a hearer...if sound is actually heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Sit quietly and take in a few deep breaths to let the dust settle and then focus on the experience of the tick tock sound. Set aside ALL thoughts, images, ideas throughout this experiment and just focus on the sound itself.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than tick tock – AE of sound?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be directly experienced?
What do you find?

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in your direct (actual) experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only AE of sound?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience? If not, then how can the sound be known through hearing?

Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Thu May 30, 2019 10:12 pm

Hi Vivian, just wanted to let you know has been a non stop day, I've read through the exercise and I'll do it tomorrow,
Thanks as always,
Rachel

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Fri May 31, 2019 9:32 pm

Hi,
.
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than tick tock – AE of sound?
No
. Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
No there is no seperation between hearing and sound. There is only sound.
. Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be directly experienced?
What do you find?
Hearer and sound cannot be separated. Hearing is not happening either . It's like it 'just is' , tick tock tick tock. What hears this sound? I feel a focal point or sensation in the head, but this is just sensation, I have to take a moment to double check as 'i' automatically attaches to this feeling, just an 'i' thought, layering or labelling sensation, I find no me and can see there is no seperation between awareness of the sound and the sound. .
. Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in your direct (actual) experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only AE of sound?
The thing is, I feel like the sound is outside of my body. I can listen and ascertain a sounds location and direction, roughly. And this makes it feel like there is a sound happening outside my body which brings me back to the feeling 'i am the body' because this sound is outside of my body.
. Can an INHERENT HEARER be found, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?
No, now I'm sitting with it a little bit I can see there is no hearer, but there is sound outside of this body, and that makes me feel like there is a me and 'sound', I hope that makes sense. It's not that I find a hearer, just a dividing line of inside and outside. I know we did some exercises on this before and I couldn't see this clearly. The body /skin always seems like a dividing line.
.
Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience? If not, then how can the sound be known through hearing?
It isn't, hearing doesn't happen, neither does 'knowing', it's a concept or label, a way to verbalise something that helps to create a belief in a me or a division.
. Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.
No I don't find a hearer, just sound, and sensation in the head area. There is just tick tock. But there is a strong sense of inside the body and outside the body arising, and that seems to hold some subtle sense or belief in me.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 am

Hi Rachel,
there is sound outside of this body, and that makes me feel like there is a me and 'sound', I hope that makes sense. It's not that I find a hearer, just a dividing line of inside and outside. I know we did some exercises on this before and I couldn't see this clearly. The body /skin always seems like a dividing line.
Please listen again the clock sound with closed eyes.

How is it known exactly that the sound is outside?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it’s outside?

But there is a strong sense of inside the body and outside the body arising, and that seems to hold some subtle sense or belief in me.
What is the AE of outside of the body?

What is the AE of inside of the body?

What is the AE of skin?


Watch carefully for the mental images that arise showing a location of inside and outside.

Please investigate the above questions lots of time during the day, not just once or twice. Let this questions be your mantra for a few days. Ask these questions as you go about your day. Let me know what you find.
and that seems to hold some subtle sense or belief in me.
Even if there were an actual inside and outside, what would make that inside INTO a ME?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:48 pm

Hi Vivian thanks for the questions. I am going to write them out and take them with me, as I am going on holiday tomorrow, and I'll be back next weekend. I'm not sure what internet access will be like where we are, but I'll spend some time with the questions, and I'll get back to you sometime over next weekend,

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Hi Rachel,

Thank you for letting me know. I'm looking forward to your replies.

Have a nice holiday,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:21 pm

. How is it known exactly that the sound is outside?
Hi Vivian, I did this few times over the week. What I noticed is there is a strong mental image that arises. In order to locate where a sound is coming from it seems the mind creates a mental image of the bodies position and it was the mental image, and the thoughts that 'this sound is outside me'.
. Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it’s outside?
No .
. What is the AE of outside of the body?

What is the AE of inside of the body?

There isn't one, there is a sensation, and a mental image, then thought says, inside/outside. Noting about the ae says inside or outside.
. What is the AE of skin?
Again this mostly a mental image. I don't actually feel my skin, usually there is a sensation, hot,,cold soft, rough, these sensations are just felt , unless I rub my hands together then there is ae of ski . But in relation to inside and outside this a mental image, a barrier created in my mind between me and the outside world. Then I label the mental image 'me' .
. Even if there were an actual inside and outside, what would make that inside INTO a ME?

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:19 pm

. Even if there were an actual inside and outside, what would make that inside INTO a ME?
Yes, I can see that this was just an unquestioned label. Yes in reality I can label inside and outside for descriptive purposes but there is no me on the inside and there is no me on the dividing line between inside of body and outside of body, only felt sensations and mental images . If I ignore the mental images, and the thoughts about what and where the sound is coming from there is simply sound and sensations in the body. Nothing in the actual experience says inside or outside. Mental images arise giving the sense that the body is more solid than it actually is in ae. Then I have unquestionably said 'inside me' or 'outside me',T Without really looking at the 'me' part. Then thoughts arise labelling the experience , clock ticking, over there, annoying, etc.... So breaking it down there is no me in hearing, no me in sensations or focal point, no me in the mental images and finally no me in the thoughts.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:27 am

Hi Rachel,

You did a great looking!

Please look very carefully one-by-one with the following questions. Spend a few minutes with each. Literally scan through the whole body from head to toe, with particular attention on the head. Look behind the eyes, into the forehead, the top of the head, the throat, look everywhere. Also scan through all aspects of experience.

Is there a thinker?
Is there a seer?
Is there a feeler?
Is there a hearer?
Is there a taster?
Is there a smeller?

Is there an experiencER?

Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?

Is there a you?
Has there ever been a you?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there a 'chooser'?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:23 pm

Hi Vivian,
. Is there a thinker?
No, if I look I literally do not know what thought I am going to think next.
. Is there a seer?

No, just seeing, tension and sensation around the head, thoughts arise , labelling experience.
. Is there a feeler?
No again, no feeler, just sensation and thoughts labelling.
. Is there a hearer?
No, just sound, and again thoughts labelling.
. Is there a taster?
No, taster, just taste.

. Is there a smeller?
No, in all the above, there is no 'entity' no 'me' , just actual sensations, then mind labelling, 'i am...' .
. Is there an experiencER?
No, there is just pure experience. All of it is pure experience, with thought or mental images arising.
. Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?
No there is no one having the experience, and no one the experience is happening to, however I still find that I have to slow down to see this, in day to day life the belief in the me that experience is happening to is still running the majority of the time and really it's only when I stop and examine the experience that I can see there is no one there.


. Is there a you?
No, whenever I say me, or look for a general 'me' attention goes to a bodily sensation, but there is no me, just a contraction.
. Has there ever been a you?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there a 'chooser'?
Hi it has taken a little time to look and answer the above questions, so the remaining three I will finish tomorrow as these questions are proving a little more difficult and I need to put a bit more time in to them. So I'll sit with them tomorrow and get back to you, thanks again
Rachel

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:51 pm

Hi again,
. Has there ever been a you?
No.
.Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
I have tried slowly moving my head from side to side, I can't find a mover.

. Is there a 'chooser'?
No, a choice is already made, and then a label is placed over it.
. Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?
No, although I probably will just have to keep going over these points and keep reminding myself. Because it hasn't clicked on a level of knowing.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:57 am

Hi Rachel,
although I probably will just have to keep going over these points and keep reminding myself. Because it hasn't clicked on a level of knowing.
How would you know or recognize if this ‘clicked on the level of knowing’?
What would be the difference compare to what is now?

How seeing through the self on experiential level would be like / feel like?

When you say you have to keep reminding yourself, could you please tell me a bit more about what you mean by ‘reminding myself’? What do you do exactly when you remind yourself?

And what about the fear of death? Is it still there? Or has it lessened?
Does this fear of death still prevent looking deeply?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:48 pm

. How would you know or recognize if this ‘clicked on the level of knowing’?
What would be the difference compare to what is now?
Hi,

I imagined I would see things differently, less personally. So for example at the moment I am in counselling, working through some family issues, looking at emotions like anger, guilt, and how to move through these towards compassion etc.. i think I was expecting that if I saw 'no me' it would somehow lay everything to rest. As if there is no me, then how can there be blame and someone to forgive. I think I still have a lot of non duality teachings running through my head. Oh I think I just got it, lol, 'no me' yes! It doesn't matter, the story of anger or forgiveness, that's just a story playing out too! I was expecting the story to change, but it hasnt. However now I see that expectation, and realise, that the story that's running doesn't mean there's a me, even if parts of those stories don't feel particularly 'spiritual'.
. How seeing through the self on experiential level would be like / feel like?
Like this!
. When you say you have to keep reminding yourself, could you please tell me a bit more about what you mean by ‘reminding myself’? What do you do exactly when you remind yourself?
No sorry, I didn't mean reminding myself, I meant, I kept still believing there was a seperate me or a doer somewhere, so I had to keep 'checking'.
.
And what about the fear of death? Is it still there? Or has it lessened?
Does this fear of death still prevent looking deeply?
I've not thought about this for a bit, the last time I thought about death, I just remember thinking, death is just the end of sensations , and I didn't give it much more thought. I can't say one hundred percent it's gone because it was something that tended arise, as opposed to me actively creating it. I'll sit with this a little later maybe just before I go to sleep and I'll see what comes up. I do feel there has been a shift in me this evening, whilst typing, there is a lightness to my thoughts and the stories.

Thanks again, Rachel


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