Die before you die

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:43 am

Hi Rachel,
Oh I think I just got it, lol, 'no me' yes! It doesn't matter, the story of anger or forgiveness, that's just a story playing out too! I was expecting the story to change, but it hasnt. However now I see that expectation, and realise, that the story that's running doesn't mean there's a me, even if parts of those stories don't feel particularly 'spiritual'.
Great! :)

So both BEFORE and AFTER seeing through the self there is NO self.
So just because the self has seen through, it doesn’t mean that personal stories would stop appearing since the self has disappeared. The self cannot disappear. It has never been there! Can you see this?
I do feel there has been a shift in me this evening, whilst typing, there is a lightness to my thoughts and the stories.
Nice :)

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:15 pm

. The self cannot disappear. It has never been there! Can you see this?

Yes, of course. Just a belief, which ultimately is just a thought and a contraction.

.Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
No I to control life or own life.
. Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?
No, all these things happen in the same moment they are experienced, thought claims that I think, or I feel or I chose, but bit no 'i' can be found.
. Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
I still have to keep coming back to this one. Really struggle with this one. When I sit and move one part of my body it still can take a little while till I see, there is no me here doing this. In fact as I move about in the day I focus on the body and find it incredible that no one is moving this body. So I do have to come back to this belief that 'i move my body', by sitting and moving one part of my body slowly I can see there is 'no mover'. But I did notice today I need to bring that more into the times when I'm walking about or moving several parts of the body.
. Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?
There is no one that is responsible or the cause of thoughts, desires or actions.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?.
No, but again like movement, it seems like there is at times and so I do have to go back and check, particularly with sight. And look to see that there is no seperate seer.
. Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
No, the investigation happened. Don't know why.
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?.
No , the only thing is that sometimes , there are moments where 'no me' just seems really obvious or certainly less questionable and then a bit later, I'm having to double check because there is a strong sense of me, maybe in seeing or thought or a certain emotion. So it is clearer and if i do need to go back to the exercises I rarely have to do more than actually go to the sensation before I see , 'yep, no me'. So no confusion, but just doubt at times, so have to keep checking.

Thanks rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:57 am

Hi Rachel,
V: Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
R: Really struggle with this one. When I sit and move one part of my body it still can take a little while till I see, there is no me here doing this.
I would like to ask you to spend a whole day or two looking for the doer or whatever is supposedly moving the body. Look for it as often as you can remember. Hundred times a day. Look until no doubt is left. Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Hi Vivian

I'll do this over the weekend,

Thanks Rachel

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:27 pm

Hi Vivian, so I have spent some time on and off looking at the sense of doer or mover. Things are much clearer now. The realisation that there is no me, is very weird. At times my mind desperately wants to pin an 'i' on something to find a center around which all this activity is happening. But I know these are just panicky thoughts, and I am trying to relax more deeply into this seeing. I don't feel in any area there is any strong doubt any more, but I do still at times need to check, but I seem to be able to see through the belief much more quickly now.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:34 am

Hi Rachel,
I don't feel in any area there is any strong doubt any more, but I do still at times need to check, but I seem to be able to see through the belief much more quickly now.
Great!

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

Is there an experiencER?
Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?

Is there a doer, mover, decider, intender in any way?

Is it totally clear that there is no self in any shape or form?

Is it clear that there is no self that could die?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:43 pm

Hi Vivian
. Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No
. Is there an experiencER?
Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?
Is there anything which the experience is happening TO?
No experience is, and thought says 'i'.
.
Is there a doer, mover, decider, intender in any way?
No.
.
Is it totally clear that there is no self in any shape or form?
Weirdly enough, yes!
.
Is it clear that there is no self that could die?
It's clear that no self ever existed and yes no self can die.

It seems that there is simply sensations , and thoughts. These are known, but there is no knower. I think overall it was the 'i' thought taken for granted that was really where all the problems lay, after I started to realise that just because my mind or thought said something it didn't mean it was true. The realisation that 'i' was simply a word, literally pointing to nothing, really seemed to push things on for me.

So as I said in my last post, I am spending some quiet time sitting with this because it seems on a deeper level this needs to sink in and permeate. At the moment I feel like I am in a bit of an odd place. Sometimes the question arises 'what am i' I know you said this is not a helpful question but when faced with the mystery of this existence, of this experience without an experiencer, sometimes there is a need to clarify what I am, and my mind says 'nothing', i can see there is 'nothing' at the heart of this experience, and then there is a relaxing into the present experience, and I'm wondering if you consider that a helpful way to continue the exploration? Or maybe my seeing is just not clear enough yet?

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:58 am

Hi Rachel,

Sometimes the question arises 'what am i' I know you said this is not a helpful question but when faced with the mystery of this existence, of this experience without an experiencer, sometimes there is a need to clarify what I am, and my mind says 'nothing', i can see there is 'nothing' at the heart of this experience, and then there is a relaxing into the present experience, and I'm wondering if you consider that a helpful way to continue the exploration? Or maybe my seeing is just not clear enough yet?
What makes you think that your seeing is not clear enough?

You wrote:
It's clear that no self ever existed and yes no self can die.
If it’s clear that the self has never existed, then what else do you expect to happen with seeing no self?
Seeing no self is about seeing that the self has never existed.

Do you expect a clear seeing for 24/7 and never taking the illusion real ever again?


For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve.

After seeing through the self, the illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.

So falling for the illusion can happen much more often than one might expect. It can last for even hours several times during the day. And why? It’s because every time an emotion is triggered (by some circumstances or because of certain thoughts coming up), the self is activated. So whenever there is frustration, wanting or not wanting something, expecting something, having anger, resentment, feeling hurt, disliking something / somebody, etc. the self is there immediately. Since all these emotions are on behalf of the self. And after seeing no-self, all these conditioned issues need to be worked through, otherwise whenever these emotions arise the self comes with them. Humans are very often triggered (many-many times a day) and those triggering reactions can last from minutes to hours or even day or longer, meaning that the self is there and believed to be real for minutes, hours or days while those triggered reactions are functioning.

Taking the self as real, is also a conditioned habit of thinking. It’s a habit of the ‘mind’. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:14 pm

Hi Vivian,

Thanks for your reply.
. What makes you think that your seeing is not clear enough?
I realise that there was just a little hesitancy to really accept this. Deepening into that realisation bought up some fear. Suddenly who or what you are becomes a mystery and in embracing the not knowing and moving or living from this I start to realise that my interaction with the world and others may to some degree begin to change, I also see that, the 'who am i' question comes back up because this is all a bit of mystery to the mind, in that question I can see a subtle sense of me arising in the thought, as the mind or thought movement tries to stick to something and say 'me'. But there is no me in that question and there is no me to find anywhere. Thirdly I think I find it incredible, to be honest I had a lot of doubt that i would be able to see this after so many years of trying. But I realise now the 'who am i' approach was actually tackling it the wrong way, as it kept me looking or expecting to find something, or someone, that I could seperate from experience. So this direct looking has been brilliant!

So I do think my seeing is clear. And yes, I know the sense of me arises as I go about my day. And yes in difficult emotions and desires the sense of me can be strong, but I am finding that this realisation is beginning to seep through a little more each day, sometimes unexpectedly and sometimes when deliberate looking is happening.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:57 am

Hi Rachel,
Deepening into that realisation bought up some fear. Suddenly who or what you are becomes a mystery
How can it be a mystery who/what you are?
Isn’t it clear that you are not?


First, there should be a YOU, who could be this or that.
But is there a YOU how could be this or that?
Is there a YOU who needs to find you who she is?
Is there a YOU, is there a Rachel, who could be anything at all?
But I realise now the 'who am i' approach was actually tackling it the wrong way, as it kept me looking or expecting to find something, or someone, that I could seperate from experience.
Exactly.
The questions “Who am I?” – is based on the assumption that there is an I, I just have to figure out what am I.

The question itself is ‘faulty’ so to speak.
Not seeing the question “Who am I?” only as the content of an arising thought, but rather taking its content as something real, creates the illusion of the self in the first place. Can you see this?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi Vivian,
. How can it be a mystery who/what you are?
Isn’t it clear that you are not?
Whilst at times it is clear there is no 'personal me' . Existence, the body and experience still are. These things are all known, even though there is no knower, so to me it seems, there is no personal me , as in a doer , instigator, or something/someone seperate to experience, but something still seems unresolved, so either i think, I am not seeing this clearly yet and there is still some belief in an 'i', or there is another piece to this journey, so seeing no self, no personal seperate self, it seems to me there is possibly some deepening process, whereby this realisation becomes more and more obvious permeating your life , and possibly as that realisation deepens there would be an awakening to your true nature, or what you truly are, or how existence is, I'm not exactly sure, because it feels more intuitive at the moment. I think this type of looking is different to 'who' you are. 'Who you are' implying a more personal quality, what you are is more a way of opening to the mystery of existence and seeing what is revealed, alongside the realisation that no personal fixed me exists.i hope that makes sense.
.But is there a YOU how could be this or that?
Is there a YOU who needs to find you who she is?
Is there a YOU, is there a Rachel, who could be anything at all?
No and when I look I cannot see a me in the traditional/generally accepted sense of a me. But the question still arises, what am 'i' so something is not clear. I could just cut the question off, I could say 'this is simply a thought' there is no 'me' asking the question, there is no me in the thought, no me generating this thought. But I don't feel that this would be productive in moving into some deeper understanding. I feel this has given me a clearer understanding and at times a seeing or moment of realisation, to the point where I'm not really arguing with this 'no me' fact. But it feels like this is half the story. Unless in your opinion or experience this question is simply arising because the belief in a personal me has not been fully vanquished and the moment it is - truly and completely - then no such questions would arise.
. The question itself is ‘faulty’ so to speak.
Not seeing the question “Who am I?” only as the content of an arising thought, but rather taking its content as something real, creates the illusion of the self in the first place. Can you see this?
Yes, 'who am i' is simply a thought, arising , and accepting it has some validity, encourages the belief in a self. Yes I can see that! So the thought 'what am i' or what is this mystery? I think has a slightly different tone, to me this is just an inner invitation.to be more present with what is, and allow the realisation to deepen. While possibly at the same allowing the truth of being or the way things are to reveal themselves. This just feels like a more natural way to go now, although looking directly at 'i' sense or belief may still be necessary? So I am conscious that even as I write this there is still a sense of me , but I also know that when I look at that sense or belief, it disappears and I could say there is simply thought, there is typing, there is sensation etc... then there arises an inner pull to look more deeply into what is happening right now, and a sense that this understanding has more to reveal.


Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:31 am

Hi Rachel,
Existence, the body and experience still are. These things are all known, even though there is no knower, so to me it seems, there is no personal me , as in a doer , instigator, or something/someone seperate to experience, but something still seems unresolved, so either i think, I am not seeing this clearly yet and there is still some belief in an 'i', or there is another piece to this journey, so seeing no self, no personal seperate self, it seems to me there is possibly some deepening process, whereby this realisation becomes more and more obvious permeating your life , and possibly as that realisation deepens there would be an awakening to your true nature, or what you truly are, or how existence is, I'm not exactly sure, because it feels more intuitive at the moment.
Rachel, you are taking the content of thoughts as something real!
You believe that thoughts know things and what they are talking about is the truth and not just a fantasy.
something still seems unresolved,
Probably it’s your desire to exist!
possibly as that realisation deepens there would be an awakening to your true nature, or what you truly are,
Awakening to your true nature is the SAME BELIEF IN THE SELF.
Only the seeming self wants awaken to its true nature!
There is NOTHING that could awaken to its true nature.
There is NO higher Self, with capital S.
There is no self + Self. So when the self is seen through the Self remains. There is no such thing.
This is just a spiritual mambo-jumbo that is so quite common in the spiritual and esoteric circles.
This desire to find my true self or true nature is STILL the SAME SELF but in disguise.
it feels more intuitive at the moment.
How EXACTLY intuition is felt?
What is the AE of intuition?
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and an ‘intuitive’ thought?
I feel this has given me a clearer understanding and at times a seeing or moment of realisation, to the point where I'm not really arguing with this 'no me' fact. But it feels like this is half the story. Unless in your opinion or experience this question is simply arising because the belief in a personal me has not been fully vanquished and the moment it is - truly and completely - then no such questions would arise.
Exactly. This is still the same self in disguise.
You are not seeing the content of thoughts only as the content of thoughts.
You are taking the content as reality.
And the questions ‘who am I?’ can arise even just out of habit, out of conditioning.
But just because this question frequently arise, it doesn’t mean that it has any specific meaning, or purpose, or more to see.
It’s just means that this habit is still running.
It’s still running, since every time this question arise, you try to figure out the answer, instead of looking this questions again and again, to see that this is JUST the CONTENT of a conditioned thought. Nothing more, nothing special.
then there arises an inner pull to look more deeply into what is happening right now, and a sense that this understanding has more to reveal.
Yes, there is definitely more to reveal, but not to the direction you’re trying to go.
You’re trying to grab another form of identification.

So first, there was the identification with the body and the thought story. When it was seen through…
the identification went to awareness or the knower. When this is also was seen through…
the identification dropped for a moment…
but now you are trying to identify with a true Self, or my real nature.
This is till identification on behalf of the separate self.

Probably your fear of death and the desire to exist after death is at the bases for the hunt for a new identification.
Existence, the body and experience still are.
Yes, so what?
Experience arises. Point.
That’s all. Nothing more.
Experience IS.Full stop.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:50 pm

Hi Vivian,
. How EXACTLY intuition is felt?
What is the AE of intuition?
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and an ‘intuitive’ thought?
It's just a thought, that thinks it knows something, or has rough idea about something. Usually it's accompanied by a sensation, around the stomach area, so I label it an intuitive thought, which just feels different to a head thought or a heart thought which carry alongside them a sensation in the relevant area. I suppose intuition is really just taking a guess. So it seems my mind is just creating a new story, and 'i' am buying into it. I don't know what to do now then? I am looking back at thoughts, and yes there is a sense of 'me' here this evening. I am thinking how depressing and difficult this is.. Perhaps you are right maybe deep down I don't want to not exists. I really thought I did want to see no self, I wanted to end the constant search, I thought there may be some relief some peace. But now I see that all that is on offer is nothing, literally! And if that is how it is then I have to accept that.. But unfortunately I can't make myself want to realise that I do not exist (even though I genuinely thought I did, but I realise now deep down i had a far more romanticised view of no self than may actually be the case). And so if all I end up doing is going round in circles because I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting, then I Will just be wasting my time, but mostly I feel bad for wasting your time.I am sorry and I am feeling quite upset with myself. Can I take a day out tomorrow to think, if I can carry on and I'll email you on Saturday. If I cannot do this I won't waste any more time and I am very sorry, but this is just not what I was expecting at all.

With thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:39 am

Hi Rachel,
I suppose intuition is really just taking a guess. So it seems my mind is just creating a new story, and 'i' am buying into it. I don't know what to do now then?
You just have to look again and again. Looking for the one that is buying into thoughts.
And seeing that thoughts are not yours, you are not doing them. These are just thoughts, about a self, about a me. But these are just thoughts, and nothing serious.
I am looking back at thoughts, and yes there is a sense of 'me' here this evening. I am thinking how depressing and difficult this is.. Perhaps you are right maybe deep down I don't want to not exists. I really thought I did want to see no self, I wanted to end the constant search, I thought there may be some relief some peace.
You have an emotional response to my comments. An old story with its conditioned emotions has been triggered.

The way out of this suffering, is to question every single thought that arise. “Is this thought true?” “Is this thought telling the truth?”
. I am thinking how depressing and difficult this is..
You can investigate:

Is this thought true?
Is this really true that ‘I am thinking this or that’?
Is this true that this is depressing and difficult?
Depressing and difficult for what/who?
What is it exactly that is felt depressed?
What is it that is finding this difficult?

If you investigate and questions thoughts like this, then all the seriousness of those stories lessen, and thus the suffering.
But now I see that all that is on offer is nothing, literally! And if that is how it is then I have to accept that..
Offer for what? What is it that wants something else than this offer?
Look for the one who is disappointed!
Look for the one who should accept this offer.
Look and see that there is nothing there.
There is only thoughts talking about disappointment and a me who is disappointed and should accept this offer.
Look and be free of the nightmares of thoughts.
But unfortunately I can't make myself want to realise that I do not exist
Yes, you are right. You cannot make yourself want to realize that I do not exist. Since there is NOTHING THERE that could realize this.
You just have to look and look and look again.
And see that all these stories and suffering are just the trick of the mind!
Don’t fall for this trick.
Rather look and see through it.

Like when you think that there is a monster under your bed. Don’t just sit on the bad it terror. Rather look under the bed and see that there is no monster there. There is nothing there at all. And all your fears will be gone.
And so if all I end up doing is going round in circles because I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting, then I Will just be wasting my time, but mostly I feel bad for wasting your time.
“I end up doing in going round in circles” – where is this I that is going round in circles?
See that this is just a thought appearing, nothing more. Nothing serious. Nothing real.

“I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting” – look if there is really an I that is afraid.
And look if there is REALLY a fear at all. What is fear? Isn’t it just an innocent sensation labelled as ‘fear’?

“this was not what I was expecting” – what is it that had expectations? Thoughts?
I am sorry and I am feeling quite upset with myself.
Look at this above sentence and see how big liars thoughts are!
This thought is lying. It lies that there is a you who could be upset itself.

Look Rachel, this desire to exist after death is just a conditioned pattern of thinking. This is not your thought, it’s not your doing. It’s just coming up due to conditioning. And every time you fall for this story, meaning taking the thoughts as something real, this conditioned pattern of thinking gets reinforced and gets even stronger, and will come up even more often.

However, if you do the opposite, meaning when they come up you just stop and take apart all the thoughts that comes up and see through them one-by-one, then their power lessen, and the conditioning gets weaker with each looking. If you do this consistently, this patter will fade, and eventually will stop appearing and causing disturbance and suffering.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:03 pm

Hi Vivian thanks for the last post, I am just writing something quick to let you know would like to carry on looking. Yes the fear of non-existence is something I need to look at, and see that there is no me being afraid. This is a hard thing to do, but I will try to look the next time it arises.The non existence thought seems to carry such strong fear. But I am quite poorly at the moment, I started with a cold yesterday so feeling tired but if you manage to leave me any questions I will try to go over them as soon as possible,

Thanks Rachel


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