Final seeing

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:04 am

Hello Adam,
And is this ‘feeling’ an actual sensation or is it an idea?
After being aware of this expectation - it is seen purely as an idea, a thought. First an idea of there being an actual "expectation" and it's subsequent story, then a story that "there is a feeling of this expectation". Even "expectation" is just a word, a label.
Lovely, yes!
Good luck with that! There is no thinker or controller of thought and there is no controller of what is being awared.
No controller of thought is seen. Thoughts just come and go.
Yes..they just seem to arise and subside. Although it seems you are aware that there is no thinker or controller…we will still explore the nature of thought to make sure it is clear.

Look carefully when doing the following exercise. Do it several times if necessary, answering each question individually please.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

What exactly is it that has “attachments”?
It seems that "attachment" happens to no one. Even the story of "being attached". What is observed is that (as you mentioned) sometimes thought labels something as "egoic" or "non-egoic". Which is an idea created from different thoughts about being a person and the illusion of "I". Basically thoughts are "talking with each other" - trying to make sense of the moment.
Yep, exactly. There are thoughts about thoughts! Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought.
Where in colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation and sound can an ‘ego’ be found?
What is the AE of ‘ego’?
Ego cannot be found in AE. There is no AE of ego. Only a thought based narrative. Thoughts label every movement, seeing, hearing, tasting and feeling and make it "mine". It is clearly seen. Thank you for pointing that out.
Nice :)
Something that "I" wanted to share is that lately "my dream" about being a famous artist came crashing down. There is a huge space but confusion arises. Without a goal thoughts are very loud, yet no problem arises - only awareness of it all taking place. Life seems more spacious and more "flow" is seen. There is nobody to take it personally, the story is seen through. Some fear about "being a nobody" arises but is observed and vanishes. Also the thought "a nobody" is noticed.
It can be somewhat discombobulating when dreams, hopes and desires fall away and there is nothing to take its place….nothing to identify with ie a person wanting to be a famous artist.

If you look carefully…is there a huge space…or is the show showing up as the idea of a huge space now?
Basically the whole day is seen from a different perspective - everything seems automatic.
Yep..that it is :)

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:44 am

Hello Kay,

First I wanted to share gratitude for your assistance. Thank you!
Where are they coming from and going to?
Thoughts just arise out of nowhere and fade out. There is a long gap and another arises and falls away.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No - thoughts just arose. There is no thinker, chooser or controller of thoughts.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No. It would mean that a person, "I", is in control of them. There would be a pause and a time to choose from a variety of thoughts. "Somebody" could pick thoughts as if it was a "thought magazine".
Can you predict your next thought?
There is nobody to predict it. Sometimes a thought "claims" that "It was predicted" or "I predicted it". Thought however cannot make choices or predict anything. It's just a story.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No. Sometimes the darkest thoughts can arise during a peaceful experience or nicest ones during tragic events. However even "darkest", "nicest" or "tragic" are labels. They are just stories and fantasies. There is no one to select anything.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. Believing that an illusory "I" can make these thoughts disappear creates a lot of suffering. They just appear. There is no controller.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No - it is not possible.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Thought just appears and there is no "middle of it". Also there is nobody to stop it from happening, to change it.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
What is experienced is that thoughts are "held together" by the story of "I". For example - while purchasing groceries - thoughts create a narrative:

Thought 1: I need something to eat
Thought 2: Bananas are tasty
Thought 3: I like bananas
Thought 4: That's why I think I should buy them
Thought 5: I made a choice to buy bananas

Sometimes thoughts are not connected by the "story of I" and are chaotic in their narrative:

Thought 1: I would like to take a shower
Thought 2: It's Sunday
Thought 3: Adam is tired
Thought 4: Weather is nice today

Thoughts about a sequence are rarely there. If they appear - the content usually is held together by the "I" thought.
If you look carefully…is there a huge space…or is the show showing up as the idea of a huge space now?
In AE "huge space" is just a belief attached to a sensation. There is no "huge space" in AE - only a thought- pointing to a sensation.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:08 am

Hi Adam,

Lovely responses to the thought exercise.
Thoughts about a sequence are rarely there. If they appear - the content usually is held together by the "I" thought.
How is it known that thoughts have a meaning?
Is there an interpreter of thoughts, or is the meaning of a thought just thoughts about thought?
Does thought know the meaning of anything?

Thought 1: I need something to eat
Thought 2: Bananas are tasty
Thought 3: I like bananas
Thought 4: That's why I think I should buy them
Thought 5: I made a choice to buy bananas
When we look at this, does Thought 1 have any knowledge of Thought 2? (or 3, 4 or 5?) Does Thought 2 have any knowledge of Thought 1? It may seem that way, but when we look closely, what is found?

Okay...so now we are heading into the areas you wanted to look at and we start by looking at the idea of control, choice and decisions with the following exercise.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:41 am

Hi Kay,
How is it known that thoughts have a meaning?
Is there an interpreter of thoughts, or is the meaning of a thought just thoughts about thought?
Does thought know the meaning of anything?
Everything just is. Is meaningless. When something is seen a thought describes it as "good" or "bad" or gives anything a "quality". There is no interpreter of thoughts in AE. Only a thought claiming that a previous thought held some importance.
Thought creates an "I" thought which can state - for example - "this is very important for me" or simply "this day is bad" - thus shaping a fantasy of meaning and value.
When we look at this, does Thought 1 have any knowledge of Thought 2? (or 3, 4 or 5?) Does Thought 2 have any knowledge of Thought 1? It may seem that way, but when we look closely, what is found?
Thoughts are separate very often and sometimes seem connected by a thought about a thought. Thought itself does not think. It only creates an illusion of a narrative - throwing in some possessive thoughts - "mine", "me" etc. This way it may seem like "I'm shopping" and "I like bananas" and "bananas are tasty" - a story with a separate somebody shopping and purchasing products and stating an opinion. However these are just countless thoughts labelling themselves (and sensations, smells and sounds) and nothing more.
How is the movement controlled?
Movement in AE is not controlled by "me" or a thought. It just moves by itself. There is no process which gives "somebody" an opportunity to have some time to decide. Also it is seen that - just like breath or a heartbeat - body just moves by itself. Even what is said is simply said without anyone having a final say so.
Does a thought control it?
Thought is just a labelling mechanism and cannot control anything. That's why there is no "I" or controller - because it is just another thought. It is known in AE.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
It cannot be located anywhere. Descriptions just arise by themselves.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
This one was a very interesting one to observe. Lately thoughts are very scarce and there was only silence and movement noticed. At one point a thought came in just before the hand turned, claiming that "I just moved my hand" (labelling mechanism). Sometimes it comes after or during some movement - creating an illusion that somebody's just made a decision and moved "his" hand.
Additionally - there is no process of decision-making present. If there is a separate "I" - it would need some time to decide which way to turn the hand. Also there is no process known in which "one" could decide to start processes needed to turn the hand (operate muscles, blood pressure and so on). It all moves by itself and just lives.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
As stated above - there is no one or no thing that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down. There is only silence and movement observed.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:07 am

Hi Adam,

You have a great way of clearly expressing what you find. Your posts are a pleasure to read.
How is the movement controlled?
Movement in AE is not controlled by "me" or a thought. It just moves by itself. There is no process which gives "somebody" an opportunity to have some time to decide.
Yes! Could you imagine what would happen on the roads if each thought had to appear separately for each action to take place to apply the brakes!
Also it is seen that - just like breath or a heartbeat - body just moves by itself. Even what is said is simply said without anyone having a final say so.
We will look in depth at the body shortly. But for now….what is the AE of the ‘body’?

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:14 am

Hello Dear Kay,

Thank you once again for your continuing support.
what is the AE of the ‘body’?
AE of the body is just a sensation which thought labels as "bodily". While identifying with the body the illusionary "I" feels separate and "closed off" from the "outer world" (all thought-based stories). In truth only sensations, movements and colours remain - no body is found. When focus shifts to "legs" for example (in AE only movement, sensation and colour) - the rest of the body seems absent. Thought afterwards, during or after the happening - tends to create a story of "legs" belonging to the "rest of the body" which is "mine".

The Exercise

Drinks of choice were - water and coffee (in AE water and coffee being only colour).

Water - thoughts labelled it as - "pure", "clear", "healthy", "non-sparkling".
Coffee- thoughts labelled it as - "energetic", "dark", "strong".
When it comes down to a preference - an interesting thing occurred - thoughts were creating a narrative of "Adam" who "drank coffee earlier" and "needed something purifying" - as if ideas could decide on anything. Then - after quick observation - thoughts started to shift towards coffee (with labels) and "prove" that the "decision-making mechanism" is in place. Almost as if thoughts themselves could drink!

After a moment of silence and counting - "hand" (in AE movement and colour) "grabbed" the "cup of coffee"(in AE movement and colour) and a sip was taken (AE of taste).
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
Qualities themselves emerged only as labelling mechanism (thoughts) and no chooser was present - everything happened out of nowhere.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
It would imply that there is a "doer" and "chooser" of action. In that case a pause should occur - in which the apparent "chooser" would be able to make a "right" decision. In AE no such faculty was present and no such mental function appeared. Only silence - out of which - a decision was made and action followed. Also - it is worth to mention - that the shift from labelling (thoughts) to counting (thoughts appearing as numbers) was not preceded by any act of decision-making.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No such faculty was experienced. No apparent chooser arose. Only thoughts labelling the event (which are not able to choose nor think).
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
It is known that sometimes - especially during a decision (which thoughts describe as "important") - feelings and ideas emerge. Together (labelled with a story of "I") - a sense of "chooser" and "doership" pops up. AE shows however - that thoughts and feelings are not able to choose. If a chooser was defined only by a feeling or a thought (which comes and goes) - such authority would arise and subside as well.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:00 am

Hey Adam,
what is the AE of the ‘body’?
AE of the body is just a sensation which thought labels as "bodily".
The label ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body
Sensation labelled as ‘body’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a body
Image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not AE of a body
The thoughts ABOUT a body are AE of thought and not AE of a body
Can you see this?


So what is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about a body, but is a body actually known?
After a moment of silence and counting - "hand" (in AE movement and colour) "grabbed" the "cup of coffee"(in AE movement and colour) and a sip was taken (AE of taste).
I want you to have a look at the idea of ‘movement’.
Raise a hand and start to slowly wave it about, then close your eyes and continue waving the hand for a moment.

Now ignoring all thoughts and mental images about a hand waving:-
Is there such a thing as ‘hand moving’ or ‘movement’, or there is just sensation?
What is the AE of ‘movement’? Is it colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation or sound?


Let's continue this even further. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:47 am

Hello Kay,
The label ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body
Sensation labelled as ‘body’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a body
Image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not AE of a body
The thoughts ABOUT a body are AE of thought and not AE of a body
Can you see this?
It is seen that "body" is just a concept of thought, a label. Sensation is always that - just a sensation - there is no sensation of "body" or any other object - these are created by thought narrative only. Image is always colour only - be it "body" or any other object. The thoughts about a "body" shape a story of a "person" - "me" or "other" - creating separation. All of these are present only in AE of thought. It is known.
So what is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about a body, but is a body actually known?
Sensation, colour and thoughts appear in AE. Body is an illusion.
Now ignoring all thoughts and mental images about a hand waving:-
Is there such a thing as ‘hand moving’ or ‘movement’, or there is just sensation?
What is the AE of ‘movement’? Is it colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation or sound?
"Movement" exercise

"Hand" and "movement" appear only in thoughts. After the first exercise it is clearly seen that what is described as "movement" is simply a sensation. If eyes open - "movement" is only colour changing in AE.

Visual Sight and Sensation Exercise
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
It is seen very easily that visual sight and sensation appear simultaneously but separately. There is no hierarchy and link between them. If eyes are closed there is even a sense of direction - where the sensation is coming from. Sight is not needed for it. Only thought links both of these phenomena.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:27 am

Hi Adam,
The label ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body
Sensation labelled as ‘body’ is AE of sensation and not AE of a body
Image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not AE of a body
The thoughts ABOUT a body are AE of thought and not AE of a body
Can you see this?
It is seen that "body" is just a concept of thought, a label. Sensation is always that - just a sensation - there is no sensation of "body" or any other object - these are created by thought narrative only. Image is always colour only - be it "body" or any other object. The thoughts about a "body" shape a story of a "person" - "me" or "other" - creating separation. All of these are present only in AE of thought. It is known.
Yes. Let’s take a closer look at the idea the body is what feels sensations.

Please close your eyes for this exercise and just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about a table or hand and put them aside ie IGNORE them.

Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

So what is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about a body, but is a body actually known?
Sensation, colour and thoughts appear in AE. Body is an illusion.
Yes, body is not known.
Sensation, colour and thoughts appear AS AE and not in AE. Subtle difference but there is a difference.
Now ignoring all thoughts and mental images about a hand waving:-
Is there such a thing as ‘hand moving’ or ‘movement’, or there is just sensation?
What is the AE of ‘movement’? Is it colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation or sound?
"Hand" and "movement" appear only in thoughts. After the first exercise it is clearly seen that what is described as "movement" is simply a sensation. If eyes open - "movement" is only colour changing in AE.
Great! Now let’s look at the idea of change.

How is it known that there are lots of colours?

Image

When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colourS? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’?
Where does colour begin and end?


Visual Sight and Sensation Exercise
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
It is seen very easily that visual sight and sensation appear simultaneously but separately. There is no hierarchy and link between them. If eyes are closed there is even a sense of direction - where the sensation is coming from. Sight is not needed for it. Only thought links both of these phenomena.
How is it known without thought where the sensation is coming from?

When eyes are closed there is only sensation with a ‘mental’ image of a hand appearing. With eyes open there is colour which thought labels as ‘hand’ and thought says that the sensation is coming from the sight of the hand. If this were really the case, there would be no sensation felt when the eyes were closed…right?

Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Would you be able to answer questions individually in future please. What can happen that as you write an answer for each question, further clarity can happen. Plus it keeps it easier for me to follow. :)

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:28 am

Hi Kay,
How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
Without thought labelling the sensation - sensation itself remains. There is only AE of sensation.
Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
Again - without thoughts describing anything - only sensation remains. Without a conceptual "hand" and "table" - there is only sensation occurring.
Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
While ignoring any mental images (which happens a lot because of conditioning) there is no actual "body" - in this case "hand" feeling anything. There is no "I" present during any sensing.
Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
AE shows that there is only sensation. Feeling is described by thought as a occurrence happening "within a body" or "because of a body".
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?
There is no inherent "feeler" which is present during any sensation. Only thoughts tell a story of a "somebody" "sensing objects".
Would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Feeler is the same as "I" - a story based thought.
Sensation, colour and thoughts appear AS AE and not in AE. Subtle difference but there is a difference.
Thank you for pointing this out. Something appearing IN something suggest that a dualism occurs. There is only AE and AE of thought. All just appearing - an experience.
IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Without labelling mechanism - only colour is known. Even the word "colour" is imaginary.
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’?
AE shows that "trees" and a "gap" are only present as AE of thought. There is only colour - without descriptions and separation.
Where does colour begin and end?
Thought tells a story of different colours - all starting in one point and ending in another. AE shows that colour has no division - is therefore endless.
How is it known without thought where the sensation is coming from?
With eyes closed - thought pictures emerge and those might point to where a particular sound is coming from. That would suggest that a thought is shaping a story of "ears" which then "receive a sound" which "is coming from this/that direction".
Additionally - when a "known" sound is heard (labelled by a thought) - a mental picture of a "sound source" is shown. AE shows that no sound is truly known and sound itself is directionless.

Adam

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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:50 am

Hi Adam,
Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
While ignoring any mental images (which happens a lot because of conditioning) there is no actual "body" - in this case "hand" feeling anything. There is no "I" present during any sensing.
What exactly is it that has conditioning? ‘Mental’ images are just another version of thought. Instead of a word thought they are a picture thought.
Would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Feeler is the same as "I" - a story based thought.
Yes, exactly
Sensation, colour and thoughts appear AS AE and not in AE. Subtle difference but there is a difference.
Thank you for pointing this out. Something appearing IN something suggest that a dualism occurs. There is only AE and AE of thought. All just appearing - an experience.
Appearing AS experience, not AN experience. That points to someone experiencing experience.
There is no sound AND colour AND thought AND smell AND sensation AND taste. There is no AND. Soundcolourthoughtsmellsensationtaste = experience itself/THIS, exactly as it is.
IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Without labelling mechanism - only colour is known. Even the word "colour" is imaginary.
The label ‘colour’ is AE of thought. Are you not aware of thoughts when they appear? So how can they be imaginary. Thought is AE, however the content of thought is what is imaginary. Thought, as thought describes itself is imaginary. Thought is what divides THIS into 6 categories…and one of those so called categories is thought. Without the label…what is appearing is THIS, exactly as it is.

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Is what remains imaginary?
How is it known without thought where the sensation is coming from?
With eyes closed - thought pictures emerge and those might point to where a particular sound is coming from. That would suggest that a thought is shaping a story of "ears" which then "receive a sound" which "is coming from this/that direction".
Additionally - when a "known" sound is heard (labelled by a thought) - a mental picture of a "sound source" is shown. AE shows that no sound is truly known and sound itself is directionless.
Hmmm…how is ‘sound’ not known? Are you aware of experience that thought labels as ‘sound’? So how can that not be known?

The question was addressed to sensation. How is it known, without thought, where the sensation is coming from? Please redo the exercise and report back what you find from looking.


Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:34 am

Hi Kay,

Latest questions will be answered tomorrow - today is quite busy - my apologies. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Adam

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:43 am

No worries, Adam. Thanks for letting me know.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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adamrenton
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Re: Final seeing

Postby adamrenton » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:16 am

Hi Kay,
What exactly is it that has conditioning? ‘Mental’ images are just another version of thought. Instead of a word thought they are a picture thought.
What was meant is that "conditioning" is just thought story - which repeats itself throughout the "day". Mental images are of course thoughts in a different version. It is seen.
The label ‘colour’ is AE of thought. Are you not aware of thoughts when they appear? So how can they be imaginary. Thought is AE, however the content of thought is what is imaginary. Thought, as thought describes itself is imaginary. Thought is what divides THIS into 6 categories…and one of those so called categories is thought. Without the label…what is appearing is THIS, exactly as it is.
Of course - what was meant is - the thought content is imaginary. Thought happens and divides reality into separated occurrences. Without the content - as you put nicely put it - only THIS - is.
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Is what remains imaginary?
What remains is what always is. Raw experience which just happens to nobody.
Hmmm…how is ‘sound’ not known? Are you aware of experience that thought labels as ‘sound’? So how can that not be known?
What was meant is that sometimes some sounds are not so directly labelled by thought and are described as weird or "like something else". AE shows that there is sound happening and it is always known. The sentence referred to the AE of thought only.
The question was addressed to sensation. How is it known, without thought, where the sensation is coming from? Please redo the exercise and report back what you find from looking.
Could you please post the exercise again? It is hard to find. It will be answered again - among further questions. Thank you Kay.

Doership Exercise
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
It is clear that there is no way that seeing can be turned off. There is only seeing what is on the "right side".
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
View on "the left" can't be turned off as well.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
With "eyes closed" only "black space" can be seen. There is no one who can choose a different "picture".
Can you turn off seeing?
There is no one who can do such a thing. If there was a "doer" present - such feat might be possible. AE shows clearly that no such "character" exists.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
There was no "chooser" present during the exercise. No one to choose. Only thoughts shaping a "character" "moving his head".
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
It is a wonderful question. A "doer" of action could shape the reality in such a way that would allow him/her/it to be aware of whatever this doer wanted. Sounds could be turned off at will - same with sensations, perceptions, colour etc.
AE shows that everything just happens - despite thoughts saying otherwise. No one controls awareness.

Adam

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forgetmenot
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Re: Final seeing

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:15 am

Hey Adam,

Thank you for clearing up the cross communication with the first set of questions :). If communication isn’t clear, then it is my role to make sure that what is being pointed to is clear.
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with? Is what remains imaginary?
What remains is what always is. Raw experience which just happens to nobody.
Yes, what remains is THIS aka Knowing appearing exactly as it is.
The question was addressed to sensation. How is it known, without thought, where the sensation is coming from? Please redo the exercise and report back what you find from looking.
Could you please post the exercise again? It is hard to find. It will be answered again - among further questions. Thank you Kay.
Surely can :)

Let's continue this even further. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?


Doership Exercise
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
It is a wonderful question. A "doer" of action could shape the reality in such a way that would allow him/her/it to be aware of whatever this doer wanted. Sounds could be turned off at will - same with sensations, perceptions, colour etc.
AE shows that everything just happens - despite thoughts saying otherwise. No one controls awareness.
Lovely, yes :)
I would point out though, that no one/no thing controls what is being awared. Can something that is labelled as 'awareness' be found?

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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