Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:21 am

Hi Luchy,
I don't know what is normal really.
I’m smiling reading this :) And how do you feel about this?

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

--
Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

Observe this:
Say out loud the word ‘I’ several times. At the same time try to trace back where the word ‘I’ point to. Try to localise where is the ‘felt sense of I’ exactly.

You can observe that whenever the word ‘I’ is said or even thought about the focus of attention goes automatically to the bodily sensations (usually somewhere to the upper body or head or both). So there is a direct, automatic association between the word ‘I’ and the felt sensations in the body. Can you see this?

Can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought label on a sensation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:32 pm

Hi Vivien,
L. I don't know what is normal really.
V. I’m smiling reading this :) And how do you feel about this?
Feel quite well in reality :-)
V.Find somewhere quiet to sit.
I was laying on a beach today, with eyes closed, listening to the voice of the sea and contemplating deeply on this. The sound of the sea is what is heard, but there was no one, doing the hearing. All day long there is some sweet feeling in the body, something warm and pleasant, From time to time tears falling, but I'm not sad at all.

Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?
I cannot point anything that is "me".
Can you see this?
Yes.
Can the ‘I’ be found in the actual experience other than a thought label on a sensation?
No, there is no I, there is only a sensation.

Thank you, Vivien.

Luchy.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:40 pm

Hi Luchy,
Feel quite well in reality :-)
It’s nice to hear that.
The sound of the sea is what is heard, but there was no one, doing the hearing.
How is it known that what was heard was the sound of ‘sea’?
Does the sound suggest in any way that it’s the sea or coming from the sea?


Let’s investigate what time really is.
What is time?
How time is experienced with the 5 senses?
What is past and future?
How past or future is experienced with the 5 senses?
Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?
Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?
Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:29 pm

Hi Vivien,
How is it known that what was heard was the sound of ‘sea’?
hm, it is known by a thought.
Does the sound suggest in any way that it’s the sea or coming from the sea?
No, It is just a sound.
What is time?
I cannot say what is time. It seems there is no solidity.
How time is experienced with the 5 senses?
Actually it can not be experience with the 5 senses.
What is past and future?
Nothing but thoughts.
How past or future is experienced with the 5 senses?
They cannot be experienced by the 5 senses.
Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?
No.
Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?
Hah. Absolutelly no.
Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?
No, there is no proof of anything.
and that is just great.

Vivien, I cannot find the right words to express my deep gratitude to you and to these deep questions.
It is like I've never lived so far.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:16 am

Hi Luchy,
I cannot find the right words to express my deep gratitude to you and to these deep questions.
It is like I've never lived so far.
I’m happy to hear that :)

Let’s investigate emotions, since those can be sticky sometimes, meaning when they are not seen for what they are, they can create the illusion of me.

An appearing ‘emotion’ like ‘fear’ or ‘happiness’ has three ‘components’:

(a) a pure bodily sensation, like contraction or relaxation
(b) a mental label stuck to (layered over) the sensation, like “this is fear” or “this is contraction in the stomach” or “unpleasant” or “I am happy”
(c) and simultaneously appearing mental images (pictures) about a certain body parts, like picture about the stomach or the chest

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?
Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?
Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?
Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:07 pm

Hi Vivien,
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?
No, it doesn't. It is just a sensation.
Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?
Exactly. So strange, all my live I thought I was feeling this or that.
Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?
It is totally neutral.
Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?
Actually these are only thoughts . I wish I could check this when some "sadness" appears. And will write you than :) Today I Investigate with "pleasant", "comfortable" and "feeling tired" at the end of the day.
So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this
Yes, a sufferer and the suffering are thoughts. Like a dream. Not real.

Tremendous releaf.

Thank you.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:48 pm

Hi Luchy,
Tremendous releaf.
Nice to hear that :)

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?
Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:20 pm

Hi Vivien,
Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Yes It has been seen. There is no one to control or own life.
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
No.
Is there an ‘experiencer’
No.
Is there a ‘thinker’?
Nope.
Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
None.
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Cannot find "I" who is responsible for anything.
Do others have responsibilities?
Others...are.there any others? So.I could say "you are.reaponsible". No.
Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
No. In fact the "me is melting while investigate.

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
No. Just life itself.
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
No confusions, no worries, no projections. Just like this.
And life didn't stop. It flows magnificent and vast like never before.

Than you, Vivien. What a miracle.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:42 pm

Hi Luchy,
Than you, Vivien. What a miracle.
You are very welcome :)

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? 
Was there ever? 
No, there wasn't "me" and there never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. 
Describe it fully as you see it now. 
What I see now is that there never was a separate self. There were only thoughts. The idea of "me" is a thought and it appears. But in direct experience I cannot find it.
3) How does it feel to see this? 
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days
There is a feeling of relief, clarity and sober seeing. Somehow there is a knowing - "But, yes. It is so obvious."
I'm spending the last few days just looking how amazing is moving everything without this "me" doing anything.
In the beginning of this dialogue I was so nervous, so scared, so involve in the story of "my searching". Now I can see what is really real. And it is not what I imagine.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? 


The searching of "me" in direct experience. I saw clear that it is not real.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are only for the separated self. They are imagined. Now I can see that everything happens without "my help", without pushing, absolutely effortlessly. As an example - everyrhign during the day happens by itself. I didn't do anything special, just there is an inner knowing about this. And actually it happens much better than before, when I thought "it's up to me.'
What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I didn't find anything to be responsible for. A thought appeas that "I am responsible to see that there is no "me, but somehow it cannot be true. If something needs "my help" - the right movement will come.
As an example - I don't know what to say.
6) Anything to add?

THANK YOU.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:43 pm

Hi Luchy,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or two. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
Posts: 2734
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:57 pm

Hi Luchy,

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Fri May 03, 2019 9:29 am

Dear Vivien,

I 've already message you in PM, but want to reply here as well, so that the new comers might read this.
I just wish to express this huge gratitude for your patience, guidance and direct pointing. For these days of our dialogue I realize much more how simple is truth than for all the years of searching it. It is so funny. All these videos, satsangs, retreats, quotes from awaken beings ... and finally a simple direct pointing to the direct experience open these eyes. Like I've never lived so far. It is a totally new. fresh and so simple. Everything is the same, yet everything is different. Again thank you for being my guide. It brings so much joy communicating with you.

I guess we will still have a possibility to discuss some topics further 😊

Love,

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Fri May 03, 2019 11:23 pm

You are more than welcome. It was my pleasure.

Love,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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