Luchy

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:37 pm

Hi Vivien,

I'm looking all day for the answers of the questions. I don't know if I found them..but there they are.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, I didn’t do anything.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only peaceful thoughts?
No, I cannot select anything.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No,
What can a thought do?
Nothing.

Does a thought have volition?
No,
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
No,
What is it exactly that is putting attention on thoughts?
I really cannot find it.
Where is the ‘me’ localized exactly, to which the thoughts seemingly appear to?
Cannot find location.
“probably it’s not me (who think the thoughts)”- what does this word ‘me’ point to in actual experience?
In actual experience there is no me.

“My mind is making them” – where is the ‘me’ exactly localized, who supposedly has a mind?
I can’t find its location.


Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Luchy,
I'm looking all day for the answers of the questions. I don't know if I found them..but there they are.
Actually, you did a nice looking :)

I’m going to write some statements based on our investigation so far. Please read them careful, and see if you are clear on them. If any of them are not totally clear, please let me know.

- In actual experience thoughts don’t come and go from anywhere. They just there when they are there. And when they are not there anymore, then they are just simply not there.
- The supposed ‘me’ has no power over thoughts. None.
- Thoughts just appear on their own, without anyone or anything doing it.
- There is nothing that is thinking thoughts. Thinking happens, or rather say thoughts appear but without a thinker. There is no thinker of thoughts.
- Thoughts have no power whatsoever. They cannot think or do anything.
- Thoughts have no volition. There might be thoughts about intentions, but not the thoughts themselves intending or wanting it. They just ‘talk’ about wanting or intending.
- In actual experience there is not even a mind. There might be thoughts about a ‘mind’, but ‘mind’ as such cannot be found.

Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?
--

Here is an exercise.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self, put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened, I wonder what is my daughter doing in school (‘my’ daughter), etc.
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:58 pm

Hi Vivien,
Viven: - In actual experience thoughts don’t come and go from anywhere. They just there when they are there. And when they are not there anymore, then they are just simply not there.
- The supposed ‘me’ has no power over thoughts. None.
- Thoughts just appear on their own, without anyone or anything doing it.
- There is nothing that is thinking thoughts. Thinking happens, or rather say thoughts appear but without a thinker. There is no thinker of thoughts.
- Thoughts have no power whatsoever. They cannot think or do anything.
- Thoughts have no volition. There might be thoughts about intentions, but not the thoughts themselves intending or wanting it. They just ‘talk’ about wanting or intending.
- In actual experience there is not even a mind. There might be thoughts about a ‘mind’, but ‘mind’ as such cannot be found.

Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?
No, everything is totally clear.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self, put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened, I wonder what is my daughter doing in school (‘my’ daughter), etc.

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

I did the exersice and I found that I marked almost every thought for the self - “I like sitting here in the morning with coffe”, “It is so great that I don’t have to hurry”, “I must message the hairdresser”, …
3, 4 were “other” like “the event this evening? "Will it be ok, will people enjoy it?".
I've noticed also that in the first seconds it tooked time while I was waiting for a thought. There was a little gap between the toughts.
During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.

Let me know what you find.
Some of them are repetitive, some are just explaining something, yes, there is judgement for the situation, one thought is coming to explain the current situation. And most of them, refer to "me" in the current situation. wow..


Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:48 am

Hi Luchy,
everything is totally clear.
Great.
3, 4 were “other” like “the event this evening? "Will it be ok, will people enjoy it?".
If you investigate these thoughts, is it possible that these are also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
For example: I am the one who is thinking about the event, because I will be there, and I expect certain things to happen or not happen.
OR when it seems that the thought is about others whether they will enjoy it – is also about ‘me’, since I want them to enjoy the event, because I will feel in a certain way if they don’t, etc.

Almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that this ‘narrating mind’ is always about me (some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please contemplate the above sentences. Let me know what comes up.
I've noticed also that in the first seconds it tooked time while I was waiting for a thought. There was a little gap between the toughts.
Yes, exactly! There are gaps between thoughts, but usually we don’t notice them.
Since the seeming I ‘lives’ in thoughts. So no thoughts, no me.
Some of them are repetitive, some are just explaining something, yes, there is judgement for the situation, one thought is coming to explain the current situation. And most of them, refer to "me" in the current situation. wow..
According to some studies, humans have about 70,000 thoughts per day. And about 90-95% of them are recycled. They are the same day after day. We are full of conditioned patterns, thoughts, and conditioned reactions. But usually we are unaware of them. But you can aware of these repeating patters if you pay close attention to thoughts during the day. It can be both shocking and freeing.

Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
If you investigate these thoughts, is it possible that these are also about the ‘me’ in a hidden way?
Yes! When I look deep I've realised that actually It is about "me". The event, do people like it - it was about me. " I will be happy, if people like it"
Please contemplate the above sentences. Let me know what comes up.
It is amazing how the thoughts invent the "identity", the story of who Luchana is! I feel some kind of relief that I don't have to carry this heavy burden.
How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
It happens without any efford or thinking.
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
No...
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
It happens automatically.
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
It just happens. So easy, without any efford.
Can a chooser be located?
Definitely no.

Thank you, Vivien.

Such a joy brings this!

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:16 am

Hi Luchy,

You did a nice looking.

Just to make completely sure that there is no control or controller let’s look at some more exercises.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’. So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘blackness’) or some orange-ish colour if there is lots of light in the room.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?
I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view. The question is; can you turn seeing off?
Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘blackness’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something?

If ‘you’ are unable to choose what ‘you’ are aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:42 pm

Hi Vivien,

All day long I was doing the exercises, they are so powerful!
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
There is nobody who is choosing which hand to raise. Raising just happen.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
No.
What is it that is controlling the hand?
I don't know if it is something and I cannot name it.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
No, the hand just moves.
How is the decision made?
There is no decision maker to make a decision. The hand just raise.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?
None. I cannot not see it.
The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
No, I'm seeing without any choice.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
No.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘blackness’?
No.
Can you turn off seeing?
No way.
What did the 'chooser' choose?
Actually nothing.
Did a 'self' choose something?
No.
If ‘you’ are unable to choose what ‘you’ are aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Nothing is there to choose. I ddin't choose anything.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Yes, it is.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice?
Yes.. and again - what a relief.

Thank you so much Vivien to help me see this.

Love,
Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:04 am

Hi Luchy,
Thank you so much Vivien to help me see this.
You’re very welcome :) You’ve been doing very nice looking.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensation. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’, or the location of the ‘me’, or ‘awareness’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No.It cannot be known.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
Hm, interesting. Usually I thought, I'm 59 kg, but now I see that actually there is no weight of "my body".
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No, it is formless.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No.

Is there an inside or an outside?
It's hard to find where it is inside or outside.
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
Exactly! It is like all one.
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
Of this all one.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It seems that it refers to something with some sensations and feelings.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The body is experiencing something, there are feelings and sensations..just happening


I really enjoy these exersize.

Thank you so much,

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:07 am

Hi Luchy,
V: If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
L: Exactly! It is like all one.
Can such things as ‘inside’ or ‘outside’ be experienced at all?
V: What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
L: It seems that it refers to something with some sensations and feelings.
This reply suggests that there are two things:
- the something
- and the sensations and feelings

But what is the ‘something’ that is experiencing the sensations?
Is there at all a ‘something’ as an experiencer, or there is only sensations without any experiencer?
V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
L: The body is experiencing something, there are feelings and sensations..just happening
I asked what the body is in actual experience. And you replied that “the body is experiencing something” – so you didn’t say what is the actual experience of the body. So please have a look again.
What is the actual experience of the ‘body’?
Here is a little exercise. With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?

Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Hi Vivien,
V: If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
L: Exactly! It is like all one.
V.Can such things as ‘inside’ or ‘outside’ be experienced at all?
They cannot be experience. In the experience there is not inside or outside.
But what is the ‘something’ that is experiencing the sensations?
I really cannot find it although I was searching a lot.
Is there at all a ‘something’ as an experiencer, or there is only sensations without any experiencer?
There are only the sensations without no one experience them.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
No... and it is so beautiful and magical.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
Only touching is here.
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?
When everything is left only pure sensation remains.
Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
No, It cannot be found..
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
It is so that all believes of "I feel this or that" are so Inaccurate, What a joke!

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:26 am

Hi Luchy,
In the experience there is not inside or outside.
Yes. So there might be thoughts about inside and outside, but actually, inside and outside as such cannot be experienced. They just concepts/ideas.
V: But what is the ‘something’ that is experiencing the sensations?
L: I really cannot find it although I was searching a lot.
You’re doing very well.
It is so that all believes of "I feel this or that" are so Inaccurate, What a joke!
Yes, exactly :)

So, are the sensations coming from the body?
Or ‘body’ is just a thought label on those sensations?


Last time I forgot to ask you some more questions about choice. So here they are, just to make sure if it’s totally clear.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

And now, let’s examine the solidity of the head.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?


Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them?


Without thought, how big is the head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:52 pm

Hi Vivien,
It brings so much joy investigating with you like this.

It's like I've never seen clear before.
So, are the sensations coming from the body?
No. They are just coming.
Or ‘body’ is just a thought label on those sensations?
It is just a thought label.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Yes, totally clear.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
Yes, it is totally clear. laughter came when I red "free will".
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head
There is a thought about finger touching the head, but actually it is only sensation.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
Only sensations ...a sensation just now came while I'm writting in the body, the feeling it's like dissolving.
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them
Only thoughts.
Without thought, how big is the head?
Cannot be known.
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
No...
Without thought, does it have a location?
Has no location.

wow.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:16 am

Hi Luchy,
It brings so much joy investigating with you like this.
I am glad to hear that :)
It's like I've never seen clear before.
Yes, that’s the whole point of this investigation. To see from a totally new perspective. This is whole investigation is about a shift in perception.

Let’s see if there is a connection between a visual image and sensations.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?


You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

--

Now, look at whatever is in front of you.

It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
Now focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:41 pm

Hi Vivien,
V. Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
I don't know what is normal really. Hah. In this experience there is no link actually. Only thoughts.
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, I can see this. Like for the first time.
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes.
It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?
It is like a windscreen view. When I felted the truth of this, a warm energy is overwelmd the body.
Now focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
yes
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
it is only what's seen.
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
It is just an experience.

Luchy


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