Luchy

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Luchana
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Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:27 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no person. The person "Luchana" is invented somehow.

What are you looking for at LU?
I hope that I will find some direct pointing and help to see that this "me" does not exist. I feel somehow from time to time that it is not true, but longing for a real liberation and real seeing. I don't what to postpone and to prolong. I want to cross over.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be honest - I don't know. I've red some conversations from the book Gateless Gatecrashers and I like it so much. Simple and direct. No concepts, no ideas, just this. I'm open to receive this guidance, even I feel some little fear inside.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've heard of self-inquiry at about 1, 5 years ago. Before that I start to practice some meditations.
I also had a depression 4 years ago and this was the beginning - after this my searching was started.
I follow the pointing of some Eeastern Teachers like Ramana, Nisargadatta.
Also Tole, and follow satsang with Mooji.
This is my opinion. I've had some bliss moments, but I also know that they come and go.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:39 am

Hi Luchy,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no such entity as a 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is essentially an extension of your own inquiry. It is 'guided' so that specific areas may be examined.
I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run! The site has gone down before.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions and a video about the Quote function are at the top of the Gate Forum.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:14 pm

Hi Luchy,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no such entity as a 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is essentially an extension of your own inquiry. It is 'guided' so that specific areas may be examined.
I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run! The site has gone down before.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?

How will you change?

What will be different?
Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions and a video about the Quote function are at the top of the Gate Forum.

Vivien

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Luchana
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:25 pm

Dear Vivien,

thank you so much for your message. It seems that I didn't receive notifications via mail but I will check how to subscibe now.
I've red all the information and I'm absolutely ok with it.

I'm sorry for my previous reply, it happend suddenly, trying to work out with the quotes. And didn't find how to delete it :-)

There ase the answers to your questions:

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
Hm, there are no any special expetations, just want to see cleary all the time without any ilusions.
How will Life change?


Life probably will not change. It is always what it is.
How will you change?
I realy don't know If I will change.
What will be different?
Nothing..and when this answer shows up….it strike me so deep. Nothing will be different.


Love and deep gratitude,

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:47 am

Hi Luchy,

It seems that I didn't receive notifications via mail but I will check how to subscibe now.
This can happen. You can check your subscription. When you post your next reply, before pressing the ‘Submit’ button, make sure that that ‘notify me when a reply is posted’ box is ticked. You can find it under the ‘Submit’ button. There is a ‘Options’ box, with 4 boxes to tick. The ‘notify me when a reply is posted’ is the last one.

So, let’s get start it. What we are going to do is that I’ll give you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before the mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

So, the first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel, etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?


I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Dear Vivien,

thanks for the clarifications.

And thank you for these burning questions.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
While I was reading the question this morning something shaked inside, so I left the computer. Yes, it would be fair to say that I’m sitting in a chair, looking at a computer and reading your words.
What does the word 'I' point to?
The “I” point to the personality. It’s seems as though.
What makes this body ‘yours’?
Nothing..when I look - there is no label that this body is mine actualy. So strange. A thought appears that this is my body.
What makes this body ‘you’?
It's probably the name given to it. Name Luchana, born with this body.

Thank you agaian Vivian.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:10 am

Hi Luchy,
Vivien: What makes this body ‘yours’?
Luchy: Nothing..when I look - there is no label that this body is mine actualy. So strange. A thought appears that this is my body.
Nice looking. In reality, only thoughts suggest that this body is mine or me.
Yes, it would be fair to say that I’m sitting in a chair, looking at a computer and reading your words.
OK, so let’s try to find the ‘owner’ of the body, who is supposedly sitting in a chair.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Dear Vivien,

before I aswer the questions bellow I would like to share some things from today.
I experinece some very deep emotions - there is a sadness and a fear also. As far as I look at the person Luchana it seems so irrelevant.I looked in memories, in toughts, I looked at a picture of mine.. it looks like a ghost. And to be honest - that scares me a little. Also I feel very sleepy during the day. This is not usual. I just mention all these. Probably there isn't any specific meaning, just feel that can share this with you.

Vivien: Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
All day I examine this question and I cannot find that, which sees. The seeing just happen.
Vivien: Do you see a seer?
When I try to look deeper, here comes the fear. I cannot find anybody.
Vivien: Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
no, it can’t be found.I cannot say "Here it is".


Deep gratitude,

Luchy.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:46 am

Hi Luchy,
I experinece some very deep emotions - there is a sadness and a fear also. As far as I look at the person Luchana it seems so irrelevant.I looked in memories, in toughts, I looked at a picture of mine.. it looks like a ghost. And to be honest - that scares me a little.
Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?


Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?
.. it looks like a ghost. And to be honest - that scares me a little.
“it looks like a ghost” – is a story. It’s a mental label. So when ‘you’ start to search for the ‘you’, wherever ‘you’ look, ‘you’ cannot find the ‘you’. As a result, a thought popping up with the statement: “it’s like a ghost”. And based on whatever beliefs and interpretations you hold about ghosts or the noting of ‘being a ghost’, you’ll experience certain emotions, like fear.

But actually, ‘ghost’ is just a mental label, just a thought overlayering the actual experience (of not being able to find the self). Do you see this?

And regardless whether the ‘ghost’ label is applied to the self or not, the self has never been there. The life went on perfectly fine without knowing of no self, and life will go on just as fine after seeing no-self.
Please let me know what comes up reading this.
When I try to look deeper, here comes the fear. I cannot find anybody.
Look very closely. This fear suggests something. It tells a story. What is this fear about?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:58 pm

Dear Vivien,

thank you so much for your words. I cannot describe how, but reading your message this morning all the drama from the last day vanished.Thank you. Also a laughter came up, especially when I was reading your explanation about "the ghost".
Vivien: What do you want to protect me from?
Basically protect me from not going crazy.
Vivien:What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
The story is telling that I will be a middle age woman lost in the searching of her self.
Vivien:Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?
I cannot name it..but when I look behind the fear, the fear is no longer so powerful. Somehow is diminished by this..
Vivien: Please let me know what comes up reading this.
Something strike me deeply inside. The life was, is and will be just as it is. Beautiful!

Vivien: What is this fear about?
It's about I'm going to lose this what I only imagine I am.
hahaha!

Much love and gratitude,

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:47 am

Hi Luchy,
thank you so much for your words. I cannot describe how, but reading your message this morning all the drama from the last day vanished.Thank you. Also a laughter came up, especially when I was reading your explanation about "the ghost".
I’m glad that it helped. Probably you’ve seen that the ghost story is nothing else then a story, a mental label, and there is no reality behind it.
Basically protect me from not going crazy.
This is a belief. There can be all sorts of belief or fears about seeing through the self, and going crazy is one of the popular ones. Actually, I had this belief too :) Since most people aren’t interested in waking up, so this whole process can be seen as something weird, unusual, or even abnormal. From here, it’s just a jump to conclude that ‘I might go crazy’. But these are all just labels, but if they are taken seriously, they can provoke fear.
The story is telling that I will be a middle age woman lost in the searching of her self.
You don’t have to search for the self until the end of time :) At some point, after lots of looking, it gets totally clear that the reason that it cannot be found, because it’s not there. So searching will stop.
I cannot name it..but when I look behind the fear, the fear is no longer so powerful. Somehow is diminished by this..
Yes, exactly. Since the fear is fuelled by the story. If the story is not taken seriously, or even if it’s just ignored for a few moments, the emotion lessens or even goes away. There is nothing behind the fear. It was sustained only by the story.
Vivien: What is this fear about?
Luchy: It's about I'm going to lose this what I only imagine I am.
OK. Just because the self is seen for what it is, it doesn’t mean that the illusion will stop occurring. It might sometimes, but it’s has a place in life. The sense of self still can and probably will arise after seeing through the self, however it won’t be taken as seriously. So literally, nothing will be lost.

Since the whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts, let’s have a look on them. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Dear Vivien,

thank you so much. There is more clarity about this fear, and the ghost :-)
Vivien: Where do thoughts come from?
From nowhere. They just appear in front of me.
Vivien: Where are they going?
Most of them disappear by themselves, but where I can not say. Some of them stay longer, probably if I put attention to them.
Vivien: Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Definitely no. I've tried - it didn't work.
Vivien: Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Same - nope. When I sit and try to "think" the next thought - it doesn't shows up.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
I've tried...unsuccessfully. All the training for "positive thinking" collapse :-)
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No, I cannot find the "I". They just appear.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
Hm, I don't know what is it.. probably is not me..
What is the thinker of thoughts?
The thinker it's self is a thought..could it be.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No, I cannot find the thinker. The experience just is, with or without thinker.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Something says "I don't know", something says...what if it is true.
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
All the thoughts are just thoughts..if this include me, so this "me" is also a thought
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
No, it is not possible. No thought can be prevent. Even the "I" thought.
What a relief.

Thank you, Vivien.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:27 am

Hi Luchy,
Vivien: Where do thoughts come from?
Luchy: From nowhere. They just appear in front of me.
“thoughts just appear in front of me” – what does the word ‘me’ refer to in this sentence?
Some of them stay longer, probably if I put attention to them.
What is it exactly that is putting attention on thoughts?
V: “I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
L: Hm, I don't know what is it.. probably is not me..
“probably it’s not me (who think the thoughts)”- what does this word ‘me’ point to in actual experience?
The thinker it's self is a thought..could it be.
Can a thought think?
What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Thoughts can be looked at in 2 different ways:
- seeing the CONTENT of a thought, what is a thought ABOUT
- and only seeing the thought itself, as a ‘CONTAINER’.

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?

Thoughts as arising thoughts (the containers) are ‘real’, but their contents (what they are ABOUT) are not. Like when you think about Dart Vader. There is an arising thought, it cannot be denied, but its content “Dart Vader” is not real. Sometimes thoughts point to something tangible, like chair, however a thought about a chair is not a chair. A thought about a chair is just a mental concept with an arising mental image of a ‘chair’ but that image is not ‘real’. However, as an arising image is there, it is ‘real’, but not its content (what it’s about).

Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?

Here is a little exercise.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?


The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this clearly?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Luchana
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Re: Luchy

Postby Luchana » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 pm

Hi Vivian,
“thoughts just appear in front of me” – what does the word ‘me’ refer to in this sentence?
Actually when I'm reading it now - It’s refer to the idea of me, being a person Luchana.
What is it exactly that is putting attention on thoughts?
I quees the same idea of me, being a person Luchana is putting attention.
“probably it’s not me (who think the thoughts)”- what does this word ‘me’ point to in actual experience?
Something different from a person. The person is confused by the thoughts, but the thoughts cannot confuse this...
Can a thought think?[
No.
What can a thought do?
Actually nothing special.
Does a thought have volition?
No,
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
Probably not, but I've noticed sometimes when the attention is on one let's say negative thought, some other negative thoughts join the first one.
When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored, is what we call the actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?
YES, I can cleary see this.
Certain sensations can be felt in the body that is labelled such and such emotion, like ‘cheerful’. However, ‘cheerful’ is just a mental label on the felt sensation. So the felt sensation is ‘real’, the arising mental label, simply as arising label is ‘real’, but its content ‘cheerful’ is just an idea. Can you see this?
Yes.
What happened to the melon?
Nothing happened.
How about the sensation that was so believable?
my mind is making them..
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
No
Was there an appearing mental image?
Yes, there was,
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
No.
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.
Can you see this clearly?
Yes, I see this very clear.

Thank you so much, Vivien
I've never looked at this like this.

Luchy

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Luchy

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:00 am

Hi Luchy,
V: “thoughts just appear in front of me” – what does the word ‘me’ refer to in this sentence?
L: Actually when I'm reading it now - It’s refer to the idea of me, being a person Luchana.
Please, don’t just read my question and answer from thought. Rather LOOK at the actual experience. So when I ask you a question, stop, and start observing the thoughts. And write down your answer from the actual experience and from what thoughts say.

The actual experience is sight, sound, taste, smell, sensation/touch + the seeing the arising thought (the container itself). But the CONTENT of the thought is NOT the actual experience.

And your reply was the content of a thought. So when I ask you “What does the word ‘me’ refer to in this sentence?” – I’m not asking for an intellectual answer, not for a reasoning. Rather I’m asking you to stop, see the arising of thought, and see / observe that: Where is the ‘me’ localized exactly, to which the thoughts seemingly appear to.
V: What is it exactly that is putting attention on thoughts?
L: I quees the same idea of me, being a person Luchana is putting attention.
This reply also didn’t come from actual experience. You just wrote down the content of a thought, but you didn’t look for yourself. So, look again.
V: “probably it’s not me (who think the thoughts)”- what does this word ‘me’ point to in actual experience?
L: Something different from a person. The person is confused by the thoughts, but the thoughts cannot confuse this...
Again, you were thinking about the answer, rather looking for an answer. Please LOOK.
V: What can a thought do?
L: Actually nothing special.
Please don’t just think about it, but rather directly look at a thought and SEE what it can do.
V: Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?
L: Probably not, but I've noticed sometimes when the attention is on one let's say negative thought, some other negative thoughts join the first one.
“Probably not” – please don’t just speculate, but rather really look at it. Investigate, like when a scientist has found something very strange and new phenomenon, and he would like to know everything about it. So she looks at her new discovery from every possible angle with magnifying glass very thoroughly. She wants to see how it works. Be like a scientist and observe thoughts with magnifying lenses :)

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

After lots of careful looking, open your eyes, read the first question, then close your eyes again, and LOOK for the answer. Don’t just write down the opinion of a thought about it, but look BEFORE a thought could have an opinion about it. When you’ve seen it, write it down. Read the next question, then close your eyes, and look again. Do this one-by-one with each question.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only peaceful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
What can a thought do?
Does a thought have volition?
Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts?

What is it exactly that is putting attention on thoughts?
Where is the ‘me’ localized exactly, to which the thoughts seemingly appear to?
“probably it’s not me (who think the thoughts)”- what does this word ‘me’ point to in actual experience?
“My mind is making them” – where is the ‘me’ exactly localized, who supposedly has a mind?
I've never looked at this like this.
Yes, that’s the whole point our investigation. To from a totally new perspective.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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