Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:33 pm

Thank you Tatanya, some lovely answers here.

Let me see if any other guides have questions for you.

much love, Mark.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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enthusiasm
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:49 am

Much, much, so much Love!

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:16 am

Hello Tatanya, a question from a fellow guide:
I also see how I am not as the most people acting from the mind anymore. I see when it tries to take the driver seat and I politely ask it to move away.

What is "mind" in direct experience?

What is it that asks mind to move away?

thanks.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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enthusiasm
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:35 pm

Hello Tatanya, a question from a fellow guide:
I also see how I am not as the most people acting from the mind anymore. I see when it tries to take the driver seat and I politely ask it to move away.

What is "mind" in direct experience?

What is it that asks mind to move away?

thanks.

How interesting that the part I had the hardest time expressing, is the one which provoked the question. Also hard to express with the mind how things are beyond it. Mind in my direct experience is what connects the thoughts, sensations and feelings into stories. It creates links between these objects and tells a story about them. These stories could be either taken in a "positive" or in a "negative" way. What I mean by acting from the mind is believing it to the fullest. Taking it as a sole authority and not questioning it.

What asks the mind to move away is not exactly an action done by anyone. It's more like the mind is conditioned that it's for common benefit, for greater good, to step away and not push too hard anymore. Really having hard time to find the most correct words. Hope it's clear enough ? 🙂

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:14 pm

Yes, language is tricky isn't it!?
Mind in my direct experience is what connects the thoughts, sensations and feelings into stories. It creates links between these objects and tells a story about them. These stories could be either taken in a "positive" or in a "negative" way.

What you say here Tatanya, is that the mind or a story about the mind?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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enthusiasm
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:36 pm

Yes, language is tricky isn't it!?
Mind in my direct experience is what connects the thoughts, sensations and feelings into stories. It creates links between these objects and tells a story about them. These stories could be either taken in a "positive" or in a "negative" way.

What you say here Tatanya, is that the mind or a story about the mind?

Yet another story that is.

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:37 am

Two of the strongest associations people have is with "body" and "mind". We talk about these things constantly as if they are me or mine: "I hate my body" or "My mind won't shut up" etc.


If we sit quietly and look for either body or mind -- what do we find?


Try sitting quietly in a chair and gently explore "body" -- what do you find? Can you experience "body"?


Try this also with "mind" -- try to grab ahold of it now -- what do you find? Can you experience "mind"?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:10 am

Two of the strongest associations people have is with "body" and "mind". We talk about these things constantly as if they are me or mine: "I hate my body" or "My mind won't shut up" etc.


If we sit quietly and look for either body or mind -- what do we find?

I've really struggled with the body part of the question. But once I saw it's not me who has chosen, created or possessed it, I started feeling lighter about that and the grip of the mind trying to always improve, better or fit in some rigid box loosened.

Try sitting quietly in a chair and gently explore "body" -- what do you find? Can you experience "body"?

I only notice sensations and thoughts associated with them, but I definitely cannot experience "body". There are only labels associated with sensations. I tried to experience arm, leg, back, but they can not be experienced. Only association between all these objects exists but it is a story created by the mind.

Try this also with "mind" -- try to grab ahold of it now -- what do you find? Can you experience "mind"?

Again, no, there is o way to experience "mind". It is just something that is observed.

So different to be able to see all that.

Thank you!

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:07 am

Thanks Tatanya,

just waiting to hear back from other guides to see if there are any remaining questions.

much love,

Mark
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:14 am

Hello Tatanya,

a request for clarification:

You said
"What I mean by acting from the mind is believing it to the fullest. Taking it as a sole authority and not questioning it."

What is the separate entity that questions a mind? Is either the entity or the mind any other than thoughts or a story ABOUT separate entities?

there is o way to experience "mind". It is just something that is observed.


What is it that is being observed? What is it that is doing the observing?

thanks!
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:37 pm

Hello Mark,

I want to be honest about something I noticed after I read the last questions of yours. A story how bored the mind is with these questions swirling in spiral is going on in it. Also it is tired with looking for the right words so no more questions are required. And I can see how funny that is because it's like it wants to win something, or get somewhere fast, get the prize of being enlightened. And in the same time I have no other way to express that except through the mind itself. So I am not completely sure whether I want to answer the questions now. Nothing can be forced and I don't want to feel as if I'm running a race. But I will try. Just wanted to let you know that,to be open and clear.

You said
"What I mean by acting from the mind is believing it to the fullest. Taking it as a sole authority and not questioning it."

What is the separate entity that questions a mind? Is either the entity or the mind any other than thoughts or a story ABOUT separate entities?

What comes is "of course it is a story, everything is a story of some kind." but I don't want to sound arrogant. Nor I am trying to sound smart. Maybe it's more accurate to say it's an observation about a story that the mind tells how it's separated from what observes it rather than in it. And now I see how mind is... Just thoughts with specific content. There are no separate entities. It is a story inside a story. Now I'm feeling confused.

there is no way to experience "mind". It is just something that is observed.


What is it that is being observed? What is it that is doing the observing?
The thoughts that create a thought about a mind are observed. The observing is just observing. Nothing is doing it.

I'm not sure anymore...


And btw, the name is Tatyana 😊

Love.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 pm

Hello Tatyana (sorry about the misspell!)
I can see how funny that is because it's like it wants to win something, or get somewhere fast, get the prize of being enlightened.
Right! Good to notice that.

Is seeing through the separate self a prize? What is it that wins the prize?

Nothing can be forced and I don't want to feel as if I'm running a race.

Yes that's a great way of looking at it -- what is it that could run or win this race?

Where is there to go that isn't the present moment?

I have no other way to express that except through the mind itself

What we are trying to do is see if there is such a thing as "mind itself"? It's partly a trick of language. We say "it is raining" -- but where is this "it" doing the raining? There is just water falling. Or we say "the weather is stormy" -- but where is the weather? Can you find such a thing? There is just air moving. Similarly we talk about mind doing this or that -- but what can we actually find?

And now I see how mind is... Just thoughts with specific content. There are no separate entities. It is a story inside a story. Now I'm feeling confused.



Right -- you saw that "body" is a series of sensations -- "mind" is a series of thoughts. It's like "the weather" -- an abstracted entity that is added on to the actual experience.

The thoughts that create a thought about a mind are observed. The observing is just observing. Nothing is doing it.

Right! No "it " doing the raining -- no "mind" doing the thinking.


Being unsure is good. Answers are not supplied by thought. Thought "adds on" stuff that isn't there. Drop the thinking. Trust the seeing.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:15 pm

Hello Tatyana (sorry about the misspell!)
I can see how funny that is because it's like it wants to win something, or get somewhere fast, get the prize of being enlightened.
Right! Good to notice that.

Is seeing through the separate self a prize? What is it that wins the prize?

Nothing can be forced and I don't want to feel as if I'm running a race.

Yes that's a great way of looking at it -- what is it that could run or win this race?

Where is there to go that isn't the present moment?

I have no other way to express that except through the mind itself

What we are trying to do is see if there is such a thing as "mind itself"? It's partly a trick of language. We say "it is raining" -- but where is this "it" doing the raining? There is just water falling. Or we say "the weather is stormy" -- but where is the weather? Can you find such a thing? There is just air moving. Similarly we talk about mind doing this or that -- but what can we actually find?

And now I see how mind is... Just thoughts with specific content. There are no separate entities. It is a story inside a story. Now I'm feeling confused.



Right -- you saw that "body" is a series of sensations -- "mind" is a series of thoughts. It's like "the weather" -- an abstracted entity that is added on to the actual experience.

The thoughts that create a thought about a mind are observed. The observing is just observing. Nothing is doing it.

Right! No "it " doing the raining -- no "mind" doing the thinking.


Being unsure is good. Answers are not supplied by thought. Thought "adds on" stuff that isn't there. Drop the thinking. Trust the seeing.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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enthusiasm
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:59 pm

I can see how funny that is because it's like it wants to win something, or get somewhere fast, get the prize of being enlightened.
Right! Good to notice that.

Is seeing through the separate self a prize? What is it that wins the prize?

No, no prize. Nothing wins anything. These are just concepts.

Nothing can be forced and I don't want to feel as if I'm running a race.

Yes that's a great way of looking at it -- what is it that could run or win this race?

Where is there to go that isn't the present moment?

It's all now. Everything else is a construction of thoughts.

I have no other way to express that except through the mind itself

What we are trying to do is see if there is such a thing as "mind itself"? It's partly a trick of language. We say "it is raining" -- but where is this "it" doing the raining? There is just water falling. Or we say "the weather is stormy" -- but where is the weather? Can you find such a thing? There is just air moving. Similarly we talk about mind doing this or that -- but what can we actually find?

And now I see how mind is... Just thoughts with specific content. There are no separate entities. It is a story inside a story. Now I'm feeling confused.



Right -- you saw that "body" is a series of sensations -- "mind" is a series of thoughts. It's like "the weather" -- an abstracted entity that is added on to the actual experience.

Yes, "mind" are thoughts connected in a concept.

The thoughts that create a thought about a mind are observed. The observing is just observing. Nothing is doing it.

Right! No "it " doing the raining -- no "mind" doing the thinking.


Being unsure is good. Answers are not supplied by thought. Thought "adds on" stuff that isn't there. Drop the thinking. Trust the seeing.
🙂

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:17 pm

Hello Tatyana,

a question from another guide:

You mentioned feeling confused.

What is it that is confused? What is the confusion about?

thanks!
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin


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