Seeking guidance from Kay

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forgetmenot
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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:30 am

Hey Ed,
Did you LOOK to see if you could actually find an experiencer….or you basing your answer on previous gained knowledge? It is the LOOKING that brings the realisation of no self….not knowledge.
I look every time. I don't know if the realization you mention is something different from what already happened (which was nothing really). Will the realization make a big announcement? I'm not trying to be daft, just confused. There's no one here. There's no subject that can be found anywhere. I even want to say it's obvious.
No, it’s no difference…but I just like to remind that looking is the key…even after the realisation. But again…looking happens when it happens..there is no controlling that. And then it’s to look to see if you can find that which is looking lol.
Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?
It's just one experience - I don't know how anything would be separate. To me that suggests you could remove something or if there was an experiencer it could chose not to experience.
Nice :)

Okay…moving onto the body.

Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:30 am

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No connection, I can't even pinpoint the sensations or the image at a specific location. It was interesting to me how empty the body felt - a little pain in the head, the weight of the feet, some soreness in legs - but largely most of the body is missing in the form of sensation.
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
Only thought to suggest it is - on my end it seems to happen so fast and wordlessly.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
The only thing that came up was a thought that noted that the sensation and image were happening at the same time. In raw AE there is no connection.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
Same thing, only thought to suggest it.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
No it does not suggest it by itself.
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
No, the body is an idea that points to the image - but empty in it's own meaning.
Or are there only colours and shapes?
Only colors and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
Only thoughts that associate sensation to the legs - but no direct knowledge of legs being there. The sensations on their own are just sensations.
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations, no body.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations.
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
No AE of "walking" - just thought that points to specific sensations and labels it "walking."
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Just thoughts - or not.
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Only thoughts about a body, no body can be found.
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
Walking is meaningless.
Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
There is no localization for anything - the sense of space is kind of like an illusion. The sound of a car far off in the distance only seems that way because the volume is lower - yet the sound is happening RIGHT HERE. I have no idea how I distinguish sensations in different locations because when looked at they aren't relative. It's like they're all happening in the same spot.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:07 am

Hey Ed,

Nice looking! :)
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No connection, I can't even pinpoint the sensations or the image at a specific location. It was interesting to me how empty the body felt - a little pain in the head, the weight of the feet, some soreness in legs - but largely most of the body is missing in the form of sensation.
Here is another exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak because we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
There is no localization for anything - the sense of space is kind of like an illusion. The sound of a car far off in the distance only seems that way because the volume is lower - yet the sound is happening RIGHT HERE. I have no idea how I distinguish sensations in different locations because when looked at they aren't relative. It's like they're all happening in the same spot.
Right on!

So what does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:35 am

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes - the color doesn't cause the sensation or vice versa.

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Neither comes before or after. Neither causes the others. No link.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No - in fact that sounds silly because in a way, we treat images as empty. It'd be like saying a photograph is causing a pain in our arm. Or like a video of ourselves is the cause of our sense of a body.

So what does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to a thought that's trying to point to AE. The question is tricky because I want to say it's pointing to multiple sensations that make up the idea of body - but that's just a thought suggesting that a handful of sensations indicate a body.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
There is no body - body is experienced as a thought.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:36 am

Sorry - messed up the quotes...

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:06 am

Hey Ed,
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No - in fact that sounds silly because in a way, we treat images as empty. It'd be like saying a photograph is causing a pain in our arm. Or like a video of ourselves is the cause of our sense of a body.
Yep! You see it very clearly!

This video clip shows this exercise perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
So what does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to a thought that's trying to point to AE. The question is tricky because I want to say it's pointing to multiple sensations that make up the idea of body - but that's just a thought suggesting that a handful of sensations indicate a body.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
There is no body - body is experienced as a thought.
You didn’t fall for the trick question! Nice! Yep…there is no body, so the AE of body is thought.

Okay…so let’s move onto time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:45 am

Yep! You see it very clearly!

This video clip shows this exercise perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
Hah - when you linked I was reminded of these pranks and then it turned out to basically be the same thing -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsT-KZpkgrw

Then it got to the prosthetic part. Man....there's something profound here that I just can't put my finger on....Like thought is going to have a fit when death comes and then it'll see it was just an illusion or something. Sorry to be morbid. But kind of like "oh no my hand is getting stabbed!" when it's just a prosthetic. But, that's just imagination....
But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Nothing would indicate that now is moving anywhere.
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
No experience of that. I don't experience losing a moment or gaining a new one. I could say it's seamless but that still suggests some sort of weaving.
Any actual experience of one event following another?
Nothing in AE - only thought points to a memory but the memory is just a thought, not AE.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
It's not moving.
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
No point.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Forever. It has always been now.
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
It neither starts nor ends, it's always now.
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Now can never be the past.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
It can only be experienced as thought.
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Only thoughts about time.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:23 am

Hi Ed,
Then it got to the prosthetic part. Man....there's something profound here that I just can't put my finger on....Like thought is going to have a fit when death comes and then it'll see it was just an illusion or something. Sorry to be morbid. But kind of like "oh no my hand is getting stabbed!" when it's just a prosthetic. But, that's just imagination....
And isn’t imagination wonderful! Look at the imagined story….how intricate it is in all of its detail…simply miraculous.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:38 pm

What is memory exactly?
Memory is a thought.
What is the memory ‘made of’?
I don't think it's made of anything - kind of like asking what is sound 'made of.'
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
There is no difference. I can only make a distinction with more thought suggesting that the memory is stored somewhere or is in reference to something that happened.
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
Memory appears in the present, unannounced.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
It isn't known for sure - in fact there's plenty of times where memory is inaccurate. There's no way to prove a memory.
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
The same thing a memory thought, or a general thought is made of - thought.
WHEN does the future thought appear?
In the present.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
No difference - just more thought suggesting that it could happen in the future. Or not.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
The good thing is, this is even crazier than a past thought. It's interesting we think we know what happened in the past but toy around with the idea of not knowing what will happen in the future. Either way - it's the same as past thought, there is no certainty.
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
There is no exact difference. Only more thought suggests there is a difference.
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?
I distinguished know difference and can only toy with it using thought.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:16 am

Hey Ed,

We have covered everything where the idea of a separate self can 'hide', so to speak. You seem clear to me that you have seen that there is no separate self anywhere.

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
There never was a separate self - it can only be found as a concept. For me, there was a strong insistence to believe in that concept for a long time. It was the reason I put so much meaning on so many things. It was the reason so many things 'didn't make sense.' Somewhere along the way thought saw that it's understanding of things was empty, and not the highest authority. It didn't even come to this surrender willfully - life helped it.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a concept. It's a vague image one has of oneself based on a random bag of memories + AE feedback they label as "self." Any one of these items could leave, and there'd still be a 'self.' Any one of these items could be isolated out and they'd be called something else, not self perhaps, but a component of self.

I have to use memory for why I think it started. This concept of 'self' was taught to me. The moment it was taught, I didn't know what I was. I learned that I could be something - good, bad, rich, poor, strong, weak, ugly, beautiful - and I tried to become some and avoid others but at each point was never satisfied with the definition. I went to school to learn how to become things, but none of them were what I was. I learned that what other people say or think of me indicates what I am - but never came to a conclusion based on that information. I learned that I could say things about myself, but none of the definitions were absolute. All AE, in all it's interpretations via thought, seemed to contradict themselves.

The illusion of a separate self arises and subsides throughout the day. It comes in the form of thought. It always has an opinion. It masquerades as the subject end of the "subject/object" dynamic yet when looked for cannot be found. It insists that it is a something, but it's just thought. Thought isn't sentient. It can't help itself. In a way all this writing is it just talking about itself. And it's all okay, because without good / bad, or any of these other relative definitions whose meaning is empty, it can be free of some confusion.
3) How does it feel to see this?
It's been a few weeks now and there's been a lot of reflection. The first week felt so light, I'm not sure if that's a common symptom and I hesitate to talk about it because it just adds to the idea that this is an experience. I kept going through the day wondering if something was missing. I kept thinking that things might go back to their normal ways. But once something is seen through it's hard to make believe.

Old patterns still come up in their own ways - but thought doesn't seem interested in spinning a web on top of itself. It's seen as what it is. Same for emotions - they're fine and don't need to be managed. They don't need a story to make sense of them.

The biggest thing for me was to see the lack of control, and just how impossible it is to change the world. It really had to hit home. That's the favorite thing for this separate self - the thought that things should change for it. There's the idea like, "Okay world! I'm here, get ready to roll out the read carpet" - and the little guy is dumbfounded when the world can't even stop to look.

Thought needs to be able to work from a place where it actually is, and not from a place of where it thinks it should be. It requires honesty - but for that it seems like you need help. We're very good at tricking ourselves.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
This dialogue really helped me explore what I thought had 'changed.' It gave me concrete examples of how AE can be interpreted in a million different ways but wasn't actually saying anything. I really think it cleared up a lot of confusion in me and perhaps saved me a lot of time. It gave me a confidence to look for myself and pushed me to look closely.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
I may have came to a conclusion before coming to here. I want to say it was a desire to know that made me look - and perhaps that was the relief I felt when the looking came to an end when the truth was accepted. It was like I had to know. Writing that out makes it seem more than what it is. Like Kay said, you can't control when looking happens - that's how it looks to me. Thought just kept coming back to this question, never really getting anywhere with it, until something finally clicked over - almost accidental. But I wasn't looking for the 'self' at the time. It was more or less a moment of seeing that all the conceptual knowledge is empty, but I was believing it was full.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
All of these things are concepts of thought whose evidence for existence are cherry picked. There are plenty of "decisions" I make throughout the day that happen unconsciously with no attention required. But looking at the 'conscious' decisions, those are the ones that are used for the idea of 'free will.' Those seem like thought is being pulled in 2 different directions, like its weighing possible outcomes and eventually goes one way. But there's nothing on the other end of that decision, nothing able to predict. Nothing able to even initiate the process - it just happens or it doesn't. There's just a watching. The only thing that comes up is a thought that says, "I chose." But that "I" never gets defined. It's the same thing as the 'choosing' - a thought.

To me, it looks like people are just reacting the best they can with what they got. That extends to my idea of self too! Paradoxical to talk this way I'm sure.

For me it seems best when thought just does it's thing where it needs to and arrives a decision with minimal effort. But most tasks don't even require this much energy. Ultimately, I can't stop or start when it happens. Attention can shift, but I'm not the attention which indicates I'm not in control of it. I'm not thought, so I'm not in control of it.

There's no technique needed to live life. You can't try to be yourself. It's not something learned or controlled.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Nothing. There is no "I" that's responsible for anything. It's a really strange thing to articulate because the concept doesn't really exonerate one from responsibility. The sense of separate self is built off this idea that it was responsible for actions. It's not my life to live - life has me, not the other way around. Very hard to talk about.

I mentioned earlier that old tenancies still come up. Here's a good one, I think. I washed the dishes the other day and there was a string of thoughts. The first was "That was nice of you, you're a good person" which was quickly tempered by a thought like, "That's not very humble." All of that was automatic. I wasn't responsible for it so I couldn't inherit the meaning they implied - either that I was good or prideful. It all stems from this idea that we should be a certain way - all of it from cultural values. It's a great thing to be free of this because I can do the dishes and require no compensation. People seem to treat their relationships like transactions. I did the dishes - great - now it's my girlfriend's turn to pull her weight. Or if not, she better thank me. I could see how ludicrous this was before but never understood why it was happening.

I'm also not responsible for my mistakes - but that doesn't mean I can't apologize or seek to mend them. It happens in it's own time and it's own way. But the resistance to it is weakened because all of the resistance was coming from the concept of having a 'correct' point of view of the situation. That point of view was always pointing back to a fictional 'I.'
6) Anything to add?
I'm really amazed by what you guys do here. I think you all must be geniuses. I'm very gracious for your time. There are still curiosities I have but there's so much that's out of the way now and things are seen through much quicker. Emotionally, I'm doing well, but I'm kind of living in a state of ignorance.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:08 am

Hey Ed,

Thank you for your lovely responses. What happens now is that I am going to ask a couple of guides to check the thread to make sure I have covered everything and that I have been clear in my pointing. They may or may not have further questions for you. When I hear back from them I will drop you a post.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby edzd » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:37 am

Sounds good.

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Re: Seeking guidance from Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:23 am

Hey Ed.

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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