Just another seeker looking to find the truth

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:59 pm

Hi Kay,

Hope all is well.
I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
The content of most thoughts I noticed today had to do with current work to do or recent work done. Other thoughts included worrying I had offended someone - by an accident. There was no way of knowing whether the person was offended, but the process was something like this - 'I looked at them wrongly' then 'Uh oh' etc, etc... thought building upon a thought. My conclusion was that this was pure imagination since the other person's reactions could never be known.
Work thoughts - often about future issues, some pictured, some not. Always pure imagination, since future cannot be known in thought. Often thoughts are pointing to other thoughts, such as one worry leading to another. Thoughts are not are real like sensory experiencing. They are fiction but can seem real at the time. Not real as in raw experiencing, but real as in plausible.
Another thought - an image of working on a laptop in the kitchen in order to work around the kids. Another picture so not real, it didn't happen. Pure imagination.

Thanks :)

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:00 pm

Hello Carter,

I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text please. You only answered one and I am not clear from your answer if you understood what the content of thought is.

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:39 am

Hi Kay,

Seems I misunderstood how to answer that one.

I'll try again.
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
Thoughts of a cup would appear to point to a cup. But they only point to an idea about a cup. Thoughts of a cup and what it does are only pointing to more thought. Thoughts cannot point to the sensations they try to describe/capture. They can only point to the experience of thought.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes, I see this. I see that the thoughts are imaginary, fantasies, castles in the sky. Whether they are about 'me' or a cup.
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
More recent examples.

I'm bored.
I'm wonder if I put that timer on?
Shall I go out for a run?... I don't think so... not this morning,

Most of these point to an I'. I is another thought. None of this is really happening, the content, the monologue and what it points to is pure imagination unrelated to actual experience or events.

Hope that was more clear.

Thanks,

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:11 pm

Hey Carter,
Hope that was more clear.
Yes…much clearer - thank you! :)

Okay...so let's begin to look at the nature of thought.

Look carefully when doing the following thought exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Hi Kay
Where are they coming from and going to?
The thoughts come and go - no sign of where they come from or where they go to - they simply appear and disappear.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No. They each simply appeared.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No. I had no control over them.
Can you predict your next thought?
No.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No. Good, bad and indifferent thoughts appeared without any control at all.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. I have no choice over them.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Nope.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Totally impossible.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
In general, all those thoughts seemed random, haphazard, unrelated. One or two could have seemed as if they followed on from the prior thought or were related in some way, but - as you say above, that was actually just another thought. There was no organised sequence. I hadn't ever looked at comparing thoughts like this before. It makes thought seem quite meaningless! :)

Thanks

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:00 am

Hi Carter,
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No. Good, bad and indifferent thoughts appeared without any control at all.
And what are the labels ‘good’, ‘bad’ and ‘indifferent’?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
In general, all those thoughts seemed random, haphazard, unrelated. One or two could have seemed as if they followed on from the prior thought or were related in some way, but - as you say above, that was actually just another thought. There was no organised sequence. I hadn't ever looked at comparing thoughts like this before. It makes thought seem quite meaningless! :)
Nice! And yes…thoughts know nothing! I don't know if you are lol

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Notice how the sports commentator is like the 'inner narrator' labelled 'my thoughts'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:29 pm

Hi Kay
And what are the labels ‘good’, ‘bad’ and ‘indifferent’?
These are just more thoughts about thoughts. More castles in the sky!
Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
When the sound is on, I am watching a football match/soccer match much as I would normally - the commentator draws me into a drama, and compels my interest in the protagonists. it seems exciting, involving, important. With the sound off, I'm simply seeing events unfold. No drama. No emotional attachment. It feels very neutral, as if it doesn't matter at all - not in the least.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
No, the commentary is not at all necessary.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. Without the narration, or with by identifying less with the narration of thought, there is less drama, less importance attached to events unfolding. The tendency to attach meaning, importance or potential consequences and implications to events unfolding isn't there and isn't required. Things are just unfolding.

Thanks,

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:13 am

Hey Carter,

Great observations with the sport exercise!
Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
When the sound is on, I am watching a football match/soccer match much as I would normally - the commentator draws me into a drama, and compels my interest in the protagonists. it seems exciting, involving, important. With the sound off, I'm simply seeing events unfold. No drama. No emotional attachment. It feels very neutral, as if it doesn't matter at all - not in the least.
Yes…terrific observation! Life is neutral, it is only thought that seems to embellish life with its commentary.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. Without the narration, or with by identifying less with the narration of thought, there is less drama, less importance attached to events unfolding. The tendency to attach meaning, importance or potential consequences and implications to events unfolding isn't there and isn't required. Things are just unfolding.
Yes! Thought seems to be the predominant experience, however, if you just allow (watch/observe) thought without actually following thought, you see that thought is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything and overlays actual experience continuously with stories.

So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Carter’ and ‘his life’?

You may enjoy the following clip!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4qc34kYHdM

Okay…moving onto looking at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:06 am

Hi Kay,
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Carter’ and ‘his life’?
Yes, I do see that - and a couple of minor 'dramas' have been noticed and passed by with less attachment. I didn't invest much at all in my train of thought about these dramas. They were just events. Like walking out of a doorway or pouring a cup of tea.

Funny clip by the way!
How is the movement controlled?
It doesn't feel controlled. The action happens, and has happened. There is no moment of choice or decision.

Does a thought control it?
No.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No. I see what is happening but I find no controller.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
No decision thought is found. It just happens and I observe.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. I am witnessing the hand move and feeling the sensation, but I can't find an individual choosing to turn the palm up and down. It just happens.

Thanks,

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:34 am

Hey Carter,
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Carter’ and ‘his life’?
Yes, I do see that - and a couple of minor 'dramas' have been noticed and passed by with less attachment. I didn't invest much at all in my train of thought about these dramas. They were just events. Like walking out of a doorway or pouring a cup of tea.
As Shakespeare wrote:- Much ado about nothing ;)
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. I am witnessing the hand move and feeling the sensation, but I can't find an individual choosing to turn the palm up and down. It just happens.
Great looking :)

Let’s have a look at the idea of the hand being the cause of the sensation. This exercise not only looks at the idea of the body, but also the idea of cause and effect (time). Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:50 am

Hi Kay,
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, I see the hand and feel the sensations and they are distinct from each other.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
They do seem equal and without any hierarchy.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No. There is no link between the sensation and the sight. I can feel the sensation with my eyes closed, and when open they still feel equal - sensation doesn't come from sight. It has to be thought and mind which link them, grouping them as 'experiences of 'hand.'

Thanks again :)

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:55 pm

Hey Carter,
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No. There is no link between the sensation and the sight. I can feel the sensation with my eyes closed, and when open they still feel equal - sensation doesn't come from sight. It has to be thought and mind which link them, grouping them as 'experiences of 'hand.'
Exactly! Nice :) Keep this in mind when cause and effect seem to be in play and when sensations seem to appear in/to the body.

The following clip shows exactly that :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:04 am

Hi Kay,

What a great clip! And I love that guy too.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
The preferences and qualities arrived by themselves.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
My preferences did take a back seat, but there was no choosing. I didn't experience the function or faculty of choosing, and I didn't see this function in action. The numbers were counted, and then the action of picking a drink happened.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
There was no chooser - it wasn't experienced.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
Feelings cant't choose. We can ascribe a feeling after the action has happened, a kind of post-event claiming of choice/feeling, but there is no actual choice feeling. Funny though - I thought I had picked the water, but my hand took the orange squash instead!

Thanks again,

Carter

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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:54 am

Hi Carter,
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
Feelings can't choose. We can ascribe a feeling after the action has happened, a kind of post-event claiming of choice/feeling, but there is no actual choice feeling. Funny though - I thought I had picked the water, but my hand took the orange squash instead!
Yes, exactly! :) Sometimes the feeling comes before the choice. For example, “I have a feeling we should turn left instead of right at the next intersection”. But again, can a ‘feeling’ choose?

The following is an interesting clip on how scientists have revealed that decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them.

https://vimeo.com/90101368

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership. This exercise is also about seeing whether or not you can choose what you are aware of – which is still the belief in a doer.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Carter
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Re: Just another seeker looking to find the truth

Postby Carter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:00 am

Hi Kay,

Another good clip, thank you.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
No, I see it. There is no choice, no turning off. It is seen.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
The wall is there, the pot plant is there. I see them. I have no choice in seeing what is seen.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
In a way this is even more obvious - there's no way I can avoid seeing the black space!

Can you turn off seeing?
Nope.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
The chooser chose nothing. He was absent throughout. The 'self' had no choice at all.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Whoa! Feels like you just hit the gong right there! There's nothing to choose because there is literally no choice... If awareness is all there is... and there's no choice in how it unfolds... (as per this experiment, and from the clip) then there is no choice to be made in anything at all in any area of life. It all happens prior to any aspect of supposed choosing.

I like it!

Thanks again,
Carter


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