Can't quite let go

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JonathanR
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:01 pm

Hi Sean
. Been trying just to sit with it all, watch nature, and see where that leads. This all seems more vast than the mind could ever comprehend.
That's so true. What mind in any case? What self?

Maybe that's just it? Perhaps the vastness is the key and comprehension of it an impossibility?

How futile, to go on regardless of this and keep insisting on mental comprehension?

I feel that fear is key in all this. And if so it is important to work more with that, to relax. I don't have any new pointers or suggestions that I have not already made.

Please find time in the next few days to read through our thread from the beginning, without rushing or missing any out. As you do this notice moments where you felt anxious and see if it's possible to just rest with that sensation. To allow it. See what happens.

All the best

Jon

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:45 pm

Hi Jon,

I'll re-read the thread. Probably no choice in the matter! Moments when 'choice' seems a strange idea at all.
What mind in any case? What self?


No mind. Just thoughts passing. No self. Just experiencing. One experience--not experience plus 'me'.
Maybe that's just it? Perhaps the vastness is the key and comprehension of it an impossibility?


A moment came when this seemed true of all. All the books and words in the world don't matter. There is no knowing in them, only attempts at knowing. They are not the things. All words are illusion. Never what is. Infinity is beyond conception.
How futile, to go on regardless of this and keep insisting on mental comprehension?


The word 'unknowing' arises. Can't explain it. The futility is seen and not seen. Times when I don't know where these thoughts are coming from or what they mean. Then so-called normality resumes again. Very amusing.

Thanks,
Sean

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JonathanR
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:55 pm

Hi Sean

Nice Post. Let me know how the rereading goes?

Jon

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:10 am

Hi Jon,

The plan is to re-answer your pointers from current perspective. See where that leads. I won't bother posting them here.

Thanks,
Sean

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JonathanR
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:41 am

Hi Sean

Well, that could be useful but you may find that simply reading through without having to answer anything could be interesting. Hanging loose? But follow your gut feelings.

Jon

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:35 am

Thanks, Jon. Following gut feelings and re-reading what seems right. Mostly what you wrote, really.

There's the doubt at times. The back and forth. But the doubt is part of it. It's not dissolving the doubt. It's accepting the doubt as part of it all. Ditto for the fear.

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 am

Hmm. There was an expectation of waiting to see the perspective shift. But that's not it at all.

Being pointed towards a perspective shift that's right there in plain sight. Like that old drawing of the duck/rabbit. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 73106.html

It really could be seen in an instant, couldn't it? It's right there and just not quite coming into focus.

Sort of comes out of attention, doesn't it? The whole idea of attention is like placing attention on awareness and things come out of it. Like there's 'my' attention like a magnet that raises up parts of awareness to the front. That seems a misnomer. What the heck is attention other than a concept? It's more like parts of experience are the magnet. Or that experience stretches around and parts expand or something. Can't articulate it. There's no attention on the breath. There's the form of the breath emerging.

It's not just that there's no 'I' thinking, and there's just thinking. It's the being thunk. Darn it. Words don't work right here and that still implies a duality or something. The form of the breath emerges, the form of thoughts emerge, and so on.

It's like everyone's had it backwards their whole lives. Ah, the frustration. Feels like lethologica right now--tip-of-the-tongue syndrome.

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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:11 pm

Any pointers on causality? From this perspective, something about it starts to seem backwards. Possibly getting off-track from no-self, but it seems related. Like if the seeing is no seer, all indivisible, in the absence of time, then something about cause and effect seems to break down...

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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:44 am

Hi Jon,

'I' get the joke. It's absurd! Was lying in bed this morning and it clicked.

Before, there's a story of five senses and thinking being located in a body/brain. You have to flip it. It really is like the duck/rabbit picture. You see it from the other perspective. It's a flow of five senses and thoughts in which body appears but there is no body. So obvious there's no self from that perspective. So obvious that even 'control' is nothing more than a sensation of muscle moving that sometimes comes with attached thought. Insane! Self is like the shadow that's cast by awareness/consciousness/experience, and you've spent your whole life looking at the shadow instead of experience as it is. So obvious there's no gate from that perspective and nobody to go through it.

So obvious this isn't a 'belief'. It really is that way. 'Self' is the belief. Greatest trick in the universe! But you really have to give up on the idea that you're a human or a brain or a body or even a you! There likely is a human/brain/body. But this is just a flow of five senses and thoughts. (Hah! This really won't help anyone else reading this thread.)

Right now, gone straight back to identifying with body. But I know where to look, how to look, I guess, so it's just a matter of doing this again and again until the selfing dies down or something. This is the beginning. It's deeper than an intellectual understanding, isn't it? At least, not possible in words. Visualisation can help, I think. Kinda made sense in imagination before it made sense in reality, but not sure it could really be drawn or even animated either. Very 'right brain' or something. Can see why other traditions call it true-self or not-self, but no-self probably is the best term to use for this particular process.

But you know all of this, and likely in a far deeper way!

Humans talk about anthropomorphism, but it's like we've anthropomorphised ourselves! Then we project that onto everything else. Can see how humans think this way, but was wondering about pets. It would seem unlikely that most wild animals would have any sense of self, certainly not below a certain level of intelligence, but what a smart animal like a dolphin? Or what about a pet dog given a name and treated like a family member? (Seems like my dog has a strong sense of self, but that could just be me still projecting.)

Thank you, Jon! You've been sitting there patiently pointing me at it for all these weeks, and it's just right there in plain sight. It's like you've been saying a hundred times over, 'Can you see the sky?' And I've been looking up and saying, 'What sky? All I see are the clouds.' And then you ask, 'Where are the clouds located?' And I say, 'Don't know. There's just clouds.' You have the patience of a saint!

I know you're going to ask to if there are no doubts and whether to do the final questions or not, but perhaps give me a few days to sit with this. Seems like 'I' am not the sudden-popping type so much as the slow-dawning type.

Thank you a million times!
Sean

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:25 am

Also, is there any tipping point after which the process becomes inevitable?

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:45 am

And how much does the illusion fade with time?

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JonathanR
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:27 pm

Hi Sean
. Wow. You've been busy.

I can't respond to everything but could usefully say one or two things.

Causality is indeed worth questioning.

What is causing this very moment to appear?

Can causation be found in experience or is causation an idea about how things (are supposed to) happen?
. Also, is there any tipping point after which the process becomes inevitable?
Buddhists speak of Stream Entry but you know, I've had to content myself with just noticing what's happening and that is proving to be very interesting.
. I know you're going to ask to if there are no doubts and whether to do the final questions or not, but perhaps give me a few days to sit with this. Seems like 'I' am not the sudden-popping type so much as the slow-dawning type.

Thank you a million times!
You're doing just fine exploring as you are doing at the moment.

All the best

Jon

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:46 am

Hi Jon,

So, yesterday was the clearest 'seeing' so far. Then the illusion returns and it's like the brain forgets some of what it learnt. Of course, can an illusion return? It never existed.
Causality is indeed worth questioning. What is causing this very moment to appear?
Well, in direct experience, there's no time. Time is another concept. There's a sense of the flow of experience. If there were no change in either thoughts or sensory experience, there would be no sense of time. Does a rock know time? Only the observer notes the weathering of the rock, and that creates a sense of time for the observer. Or to say it better, the weathering is the sense of time. From that perspective, it almost seems like cause-and-effect create time. And worth remembering that the rock is not seen--only its appearance in consciousness--more colourful form.

But to remain talking about cause and effect doesn't quite seem right. Because what the heck is cause? What the heck is effect? More concepts. What causes this moment to appear? In a sense, the moment itself! No subject, no object. But going lower to experience, it might be more like that a flow of sensations appears--more form, more emptiness. Going back to the rock, just the weathering as more seeing--the thing itself, really.

But in the moment? A moment implies time. What the heck is a moment? What the heck is a now? It's all as one, all as it will be. Time is the perceived experience, but it's more like timelessness. Is this why Einstein made light the clock of the universe rather than time? (Hah! Really need to remember to not be one of those spiritual people trying to equate their experience with physics!)

Isn't even a moment based on a dualistic perspective? How long is it? About as short as can be perceived, but that implies a perceiver. And what we're talking about is the perceiving. Jed McKenna is coming back to me now: perceiver, perception/perceiving, perceived--all one. We don't notice the grass growing; it's too slow. Form is the perception of time, but from this perspective of direct experience, perhaps all times are one. All is timelessness. Another form, another face.
Can causation be found in experience or is causation an idea about how things (are supposed to) happen?
Causation is the idea. It's observation and prediction, not what is. There's just what happens. Without concepts, no causation. Don't know that means, but that would seem to be the point--no meaning to be found in the words, only pointers to more experience.

In a sense, form emerges and returns from formlessness. And do we even see the emerging? Can that ever be seen? When it is perceived, it is already returning. (Something not right about that sentence, because of the duality.) Perhaps there is only returning. The speed of this is irrelevant. The returning is all--how to express that? How to incorporate the perceiving?

This is all beginning to sound like metaphysical babble. Amusing! The earlier process/form known as Sean would have hated this nonsense with a passion. But, whatever--words don't really work right in this place. For other seekers reading this thread, perhaps understand that attaching meaning too literally to what is written here won't really help. :)

Thanks,
Sean

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:43 pm

Also, need to come back to the direct experience of thoughts. Thought arose that these were still perceived to be coming from the head. That's not possible.

So, where do thoughts come from in a spatial sense?

Why do they get associated with the head? (Interesting aside that in some other cultures, thoughts are often associated as being situated in the chest/heart. That's a big clue right there that this is part of the illusion.)

Seems to be a trick with sensations. Closing eyes. Can a thought be projected elsewhere? It seems like it at first, like a thought can be made to 'sound' like it's coming from the other room. (Interesting, that. Don't tell the doctor about the voices coming from outside your head.) But it seems to be more of a trick of how the thought sounds, like how a voice from another room sounds different to a voice from inside the same room.

So, again, where the heck are the thoughts coming from spatially?

Thought comes that they're 'spaceless'. Hmm, try harder--feels like parroting the right answer there. Okay, so keep thinking while concentrating on the sensation of feet. Ah, there's something interesting. The sensation and the thought stopped feeling spatially separated. Think more looking is needed here.

In a sense, thoughts aren't really separated from seeing, which is why they seem like they're in the head. But once the identification of seeing as coming from a body stops, then the location of thoughts is just seen as the same location as seeing, the same location as sensations. This seems like a new key to explore.

In a way, there's a hint at times of sight being spaceless. Forms of colour of which shadow and blur infer depth. The strange thing about sight is how it's different from looking at a screen, right, where you see the edges of the screen. We 'know' our vision is 180 degrees, so it feels like, if we're not seeing everything around us, there should be edges to the vision. So, why aren't there?

Can't explain this with words. Need to sit and meditate with these exercises for a while. Will report back. Having the sense that perhaps there is a 'colocation' of all these senses, and only their 'qualities' infer separation. In a sense, this location may as well be the entire universe for this piece of life. So, we come back to spacelessness... Will see.

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Dizzily
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Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:47 pm

Need to make a bad joke about this process being like a selfless-guiding missile. But, really, who would get it? :)


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