Can't quite let go

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:23 pm

Hi Sean,
. Once again, there was a glimpse of something on Monday night, it faded on Tuesday, and Wednesday morning for about five hours was again a sudden low slump. It was like 'the self' came roaring back and threw up old wounds to be angry or sad about,
Many people report this kind of yoyoing, particularly at first.

The 'self' seems to 'come roaring back' but has there ever been an unchanging entity that could 'go away' in the first place?

I suppose we could talk in terms of noisy and annoying thoughts? And when those abate it can seem that 'self has gone'? But does any thing go away or come back?
. It's like the self is battling to survive.
Against the odds. Though the irony is that nothing is being 'destroyed'... Just noticed?
. Put this down to the the Dark Night of the Soul or something. It's rough! But perhaps this bit of life was already in it before starting this process. At least the pattern is obvious now.
Yes it could be. Many many people experience a legacy (let's say). Immediately after my own conversation I found that I was generally very happy but all emotions tended to be more obvuous. Anger could flare up easily This did not have to be expressed, but was very noticeable and interesting.
. There's a memory of and craving for more desirable emotions, and sadness that this craving isn't being met.
Good to notice this kind of thing.

Let me know how you're getting on?

I'm traveling for several days starting Sunday. I may or may not be able to post. Not sure about Internet access. I will try though. Do write and even if I can't answer for a couple of days feel free to post a couple of times anyway.

Take care

Jon

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:25 pm

Hi Sean,
. Once again, there was a glimpse of something on Monday night, it faded on Tuesday, and Wednesday morning for about five hours was again a sudden low slump. It was like 'the self' came roaring back and threw up old wounds to be angry or sad about,
Many people report this kind of yoyoing, particularly at first.

The 'self' seems to 'come roaring back' but has there ever been an unchanging entity that could 'go away' in the first place?

I suppose we could talk in terms of noisy and annoying thoughts? And when those abate it can seem that 'self has gone'? But does any thing go away or come back?
. It's like the self is battling to survive.
Against the odds. Though the irony is that nothing is being 'destroyed'... Just noticed?
. Put this down to the the Dark Night of the Soul or something. It's rough! But perhaps this bit of life was already in it before starting this process. At least the pattern is obvious now.
Yes it could be. Many many people experience a legacy (let's say). Immediately after my own conversation I found that I was generally very happy but all emotions tended to be more obvuous. Anger could flare up easily This did not have to be expressed, but was very noticeable and interesting.
. There's a memory of and craving for more desirable emotions, and sadness that this craving isn't being met.
Good to notice this kind of thing.

Let me know how you're getting on?

I'm traveling for several days starting Sunday. I may or may not be able to post. Not sure about Internet access. I will try though. Do write and even if I can't answer for a couple of days feel free to post a couple of times anyway.

Take care

Jon

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:14 am

Hi Jon,

Enjoy your travel.
The 'self' seems to 'come roaring back' but has there ever been an unchanging entity that could 'go away' in the first place?


No, this is just a pattern of thoughts. Old conditioning. A feeling associated with the word 'I'.
I suppose we could talk in terms of noisy and annoying thoughts? And when those abate it can seem that 'self has gone'? But does anything go away or come back?


Hmm, while I agree to some extent, it seems more than merely noisy thoughts versus silence. There are times that the 'I' has felt empty, like a pointer in language, and times it feels like there is a sense of 'me'. Nothing really goes away or comes back--just changes in the thoughts and sensations.
[It's like the self is battling to survive.] Against the odds. Though the irony is that nothing is being 'destroyed'... Just noticed?


Seems like it. There are times of observing there's just the present moment with senses and thoughts and nothing more, but there's not yet this deep knowing/understanding that you and others here describe. There's a greater sense at times of other people also perhaps being this way, too.
Let me know how you're getting on?


Yes, this has been quite the process. Strange phenomena late at night of old memories, long forgotten, resurfacing. A need to sleep more. A sense of distraction at times--of thoughts not quite at the verbal level--as if the brain is busy reorganising itself. Who knows?

Thanks,
Sean

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:45 am

Hi Jon,

Thought I'd write as you suggested. Not sure what to report. This process is like a game of whack-a-mole with all the hidden forms of 'I'. But that's not really it at all from an experiential point of view, is it?

Just more experience in terms of senses, in terms of thoughts. But expectations arise, fears arise, and there's an 'I' implicit to them, that something should be different. That liberation should feel different to me, that it will fix things about my life. That when it happens to me, I will be different. But that can't be, because this is just all more thoughts that arise of their own volition, because this 'I', 'me', 'my' is just a meme, because a thought is just a thought, not a self.

Late at night, going to sleep, it hardly feels like there's a self. Thoughts arise: 'Who is even doing this searching?' Just thoughts and attention 'looking', only thoughts can't look. But more come of their own accord. The search continues.

All senses, all thoughts--that experience--there's really no divide between subject and object. It's all subject. But experientially, a divide is still experienced. A sense still exists of a witness, of some master controller. Where can it be? It doesn't seem to exist in thoughts or experience. Perhaps it's the conceptual belief of a brain, of consciousness... Not sure.

When actions are taken, where does the impulse come from? External stimuli--really, an arising in a different part of experience, or a thought that wasn't chosen but arose of its own volition. Where does the response come from? The action? Just happens, like thoughts, really. Answers come or they don't.

As before, there's a sense still that there's not yet this deep knowing/understanding that the self doesn't exist.

Thanks,
Sean

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:13 pm

Hi Sean,

You're doing brilliantly. Really. Excellent investigation.

My response this evening relates to your previous post but also addresses your final statement today.
Seems like it. There are times of observing there's just the present moment with senses and thoughts and nothing more, but there's not yet this deep knowing/understanding that you and others here describe. There's a greater sense at times of other people also perhaps being this way, too. 
Tell me what this deep knowing /understanding should be / feel like? And who or what should experience it?

Put another way, what is it that should be experienced that is not being experienced?

Jon

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:12 am

Hi Jon,
Tell me what this deep knowing /understanding should be / feel like? And who or what should experience it?


Hmm, there's a certain amount of hype to be found when reading others' experiences--of silence of thoughts (at least, self-reflexive ones), non-dual experiences, unconditional love. The no-self website talks about it being proof that we are all one.

Admittedly, this isn't what is initially promised--just the knowledge that there is no separate self, nobody in charge. But from reading
Gateless Gatecrashers
, people seem certain when they get it.

What should it feel like? Yes, thoughts come saying that it will be different somehow. But is that the knack of it, really? Thoughts will come, sensory experience carries on. Who experiences it? It experiences itself. But why this whole movement if the experience didn't change?

Last Monday, it seemed a subtle shift did occur. That senses felt sharper, that a sense of no centre existed, that negative thoughts didn't stick so much because they had nothing to grab onto.
Put another way, what is it that should be experienced that is not being experienced?


Nothing, really. Just a perspective shift on that experience, perhaps.

It strikes me, after wondering about hallucinogens and antidepressants and other drugs, why anyone would believe in a separate self? Take a drug, then feel different, think different, act different. The experience is a product of the brain plus the drug. Yet there the experiences is with thoughts that it is experiencing something, not recognising that is just more experience.

Thanks,
Sean

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:03 am

Hi Jon,

Once again with eyes closed, a shift seemed to happen today. The sense of 'I' fell away inside and that hollow sense returned for a good hour or so. Just that sense of thoughts as experience, not as as an 'I'. There was a thought of having to explain to my wife that she loved, um, nobody(!). or something like that. With eyes open, the 'I' returned again, perhaps less strongly. Certainly, it seems obvious now that the 'I' in thoughts is just experience produced by the brain, not an actual 'I'.

Yet whack-a-mole continues. Thoughts continue that the world is real, therefore the separation of this organism from other organisms exists. So strange that thoughts can detach from 'I', yet still be attached to 'my', such as 'my' body, 'my' brain--because of the idea that sensory experience is located in this organism. Thoughts say, well, 'this' brain, but there's not that same sense of detachment yet as with 'I'.

But going back to direct experience, separation is a thought, isn't it? Body is a thought. There's still an implicit idea that others have an 'I' in them, which is illogical.

'I' will keep looking. Any pointers with regards to separation?

Thanks,
Sean

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:50 pm

Hi Jon,
Once again with eyes closed, a shift seemed to happen today. The sense of 'I' fell away inside and that hollow sense returned for a good hour or so. Just that sense of thoughts as experience, not as as an 'I'.
Good going.
With eyes open, the 'I' returned again, perhaps less strongly. Certainly, it seems obvious now that the 'I' in thoughts is just experience produced by the brain, not an actual 'I'. 
Ok.
Yet whack-a-mole continues. Thoughts continue that the world is real, therefore the separation of this organism from other organisms exists.
Yes. In the appearance of 'the world', 'separation' seems to be an integral element. And the notion that 'people' are somehow contained inside organisms.
So strange that thoughts can detach from 'I', yet still be attached to 'my', such as 'my' body, 'my' brain--because of the idea that sensory experience is located in this organism.
Well you nail it there. And that's just it. It's an idea. Something that seems to be true but isn't really.
But going back to direct experience, separation is a thought, isn't it?
Yes it is. A word. A label.
Body is a thought.
Yes.
Only exploring direct or immediate experience, such as hearing, seeing, touch, taste and smell can reveal that what's labelled 'my body' is in fact various sensations happening
Yes...
'inside'
No...
of which there is no' I' entity that can be found. Though thoughts continue to refer to this assumed identity.
Look at any sensation you may please. Also any thought appearing. Take a good look. Several looks.

Are any of these happening on an 'inside'.? Inside of what?

Or is 'inside' an idea that is added on to direct experience?

If you find any sensations or thoughts that seem to be experienced as happening inside somewhere let me know and we will explore each in turn?

There's still an implicit idea that others have an 'I' in them, which is illogical. 

Not so illogical if there's still a belief that an 'I' resides in a 'my body'.

Love

Jon

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:56 am

Hi Jon,

Two nights ago, while lying in bed, there kept being a rising and falling sense of feeling like 'I' was about to die. Even though thoughts came that there was no 'I' to die, it seemed like the final step couldn't be taken.

Before, it seemed like accepting that rather than there being an 'I' produced by consciousness that was in charge--the subject--that the 'I' was an object of the brain--just another thought. No free will naturally stemming from this. But that breaks down under examination because there's no brain in direct experience.
In the appearance of 'the world', 'separation' seems to be an integral element. And the notion that 'people' are somehow contained inside organisms.


Isn't then life just a concept? Conceptually, cells are all physics and chemistry--just a different arrangement of atoms, even though that's not direct experience. Therefore, it's not just that all life is one, it's that all is one. There's no real world--there's just direct experience. Direct experience is the only real. But how to even verify that other 'people' have direct experience? They're different forms in experience. Flows and patterns of colour, sound, touch, smell, etc, in this direct experience.

No me. No them. All one.
Look at any sensation you may please. Also any thought appearing. Take a good look. Several looks.


On the beach yesterday, I watched the horizon. It's just a line where two colours meet. Only thought and concept makes it where sea and sky meet. Without this seeing, it wouldn't even exist in a sense. But knowing this doesn't seem to change anything.
Are any of these happening on an 'inside'? Inside of what? Or is 'inside' an idea that is added on to direct experience?


In direct experience, there's no inside or outside. Just concepts.

But everything seems to break down when looking at experience this way. There's a conceptual world of brains and organisms and physics and chemistry, and there's a world of direct experience--senses and thoughts. The conceptual world is part of direct experience but are more like pointers to direct experience.

It's all so confusing.

Thanks,
Sean

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:03 am

Also, how do you even describe this process from a perspective of direct experience?

There are third-person, conceptualised perspectives, such as the following: https://deconstructingyourself.com/a-un ... ening.html. Michael Taft notes that everything gets very confusing if you don't discriminate between first-person and third-person experiences, which seems obvious now.

Any ideas?

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:34 am

And, reading some of Gateless Gatecrashers again, I come across the following, which doesn't gel with all of our previous discussion:
Now let’s come back to it. Thoughts come and go from nothing. Void if you like. “I” is also just a thought. It has no power, no control, it cannot think. It’s just a thought like “deer”, or “tree”, or whatever.

When you look at thoughts, notice that some thoughts refer to something that is real—“tree”, “table”, “window”, “hand”.

But not all thoughts refer to real things. Look at the thought “I”. Is there an “I” in the room? Can you see that “I” is just a label referring to thoughts about “I”, nothing else? And it appears and disappears effortlessly.


You've said previously that the body cannot be directly experienced. But the above would seem to distinguish between labels that point to something in direct experience, which would seem to include the body, whereas an 'I' cannot be pointed to in direct experience.

Still confused.

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Hi Sean

I'll attempt to reply today but WiFi access has been difficult. I will be home on Sunday though.

Jon

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 3886
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby JonathanR » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:27 pm

. In the appearance of 'the world', 'separation' seems to be an integral element. And the notion that 'people' are somehow contained inside organisms.


Isn't then life just a concept?
I'm pointing at the way language is used. Not that experience doesn't happen or is just a concept.
. On the beach yesterday, I watched the horizon. It's just a line where two colours meet. Only thought and concept makes it where sea and sky meet. Without this seeing, it wouldn't even exist in a sense. But knowing this doesn't seem to change anything.

What should it change?
. You've said previously that the body cannot be directly experienced
.

Did I say it like that? I hope not. But anyway look at how labels are used.

Yes, there is immediate sensation and thoughts that appear. Sensations happen. Thoughts appear. Including thoughts ABOUT 'body'. That's all. There is an appearance of body.

If it is imagined that somehow an 'I' inhabits or is contained within a real thing labelled 'body' that 'exists' separately from everything else then it is believed that there is a separate self.

Is there a self inside a container?

Try the folliwing:

Walk along for a little whe looking up at the sky. Whilst looking at sky do 'legs exist'?

Hope this helps.

Jon

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Jon,
Yes, there is immediate sensation and thoughts that appear. Sensations happen. Thoughts appear. Including thoughts ABOUT 'body'. That's all. There is an appearance of body.


Can we not say this about anything though? If we look at hand, tree, other organism, etc--sensations, thoughts. Thoughts label these things but they are not the things themselves. Other labels could be used, such as when speaking another language.
If it is imagined that somehow an 'I' inhabits or is contained within a real thing labelled 'body' that 'exists' separately from everything else then it is believed that there is a separate self.


There seems to be no need for an 'I' other than as a pointer. That's the easy part. 'I' is a thought--not an incarnation in itself that controls. Previously, 'I' believed that the 'I' produced by consciousness was in charge. Now, it seems to be just another thought, just another part of experience.

It's more like a self-referential concept just pointing to other references of 'I'. The senses go on anyway, the thoughts go on anyway. 'I' doesn't point back to objects in direct experience such as tree or hand. 'I' only points to itself. It almost seems self-collapsing or something.

However, it still seems as if this experience happens to this body/organism/brain. The body is another part of experience, not separate from experience.

Where I get stuck is on the 'body' that exists separately. I can think it but not grok/see it--that if 'I' is just another thought, then these are not 'my' hands typing, they're just hands typing. It's not logical that 'I' can only be a thought and yet they are 'my' hands, but the step in between to resolve this paradox seems missing.

Saying these are 'my' hands doesn't make them so, but there's still an identification with them.
Is there a self inside a container?


In direct experience, just thoughts, just senses. What container? The container is imagined to be the body because of years of education. But in direct experience, the body is simply part of experience.
Walk along for a little while looking up at the sky. Whilst looking at sky do 'legs exist'?


There are feeling sensations below, there's a sense of objects moving past in sight. Legs are, in a sense, a presumed thought at such a point.

Guess there is an expectation that things will feel a bit different. That this shift has temporarily come and left twice now in the past few weeks, and senses and thoughts felt impersonal. There's a knowing. Hard to explain.

Regards,
Sean

User avatar
Dizzily
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:40 am

Re: Can't quite let go

Postby Dizzily » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:17 am

Okay, it seems clear that 'my' is just another thought, just another label. One part of experience can't own another part of experience. So, not my hands, but hands that seem associated with this experience.

Strange, so no owner here of this experience. No me.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest