insight

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:32 am

Hello Alaya,
Yes, exactly…so how can thoughts (or sensations, taste etc) be appearing to a someone, or happening to someine if the knowing and known are one and the same?
yes,that's clear - there is nothing actually happens or appears to anyone , there simply is appearance
Appearance of what exactly?
How is it known that thoughts are different to sensations? And how is it known that colour is different to taste and smell is different to sound?
through the actual,direct experience

i don't know how it is different but in the sound there is sound and in the ae of sensation there is sensation only
it doesn't know the experience of difference though
Without thought, how could it be known that sound is different to sensation etc?
And for differences to be known there would have to be an experiencer of experience. Can you find an experiencer anywhere?

Now, go open your front door like it is in this picture and have a look. Is the open door actually taking up ‘space’? And is there ‘space’ between door and the wall behind the door? What is actual experience?
yes, when I just look and don't think about it, there is no space, there has never been any space

in the actual experience there is looking at colour/shape; it reminds me of a photo - when you take a photo or on a painting there is no space between the objects, just colour ; even to create a 'space' on the painting one needs to add some colour!
So it was seen that the ‘space’ between the door that is ajar and the wall is simply colour?
How is something actually manifesting in colour?
well even 'colour' is a lable,right?
there are appearances / manifestations all within one/a field of awareness, and that's in a way manifesting in colour
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown.
Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’.
Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what remains?

Isn’t the picture always there...not changing at all? Does it change so that the animal can manifest?
that's true, the picture is always there
it the way it's looked at which changes
wheter it is looked with awareness or with lack of awareness
How can something be looked with awareness or with lack of awareness?

Look at this doodle. It looks like there are a lot of separate things…right?

Image

Life seems to be a gigantic soup of experience that is grouped, categorised and labelled as things. There seems to be a ‘me’ that is ‘here’ that is experiencing things that are ‘out there’. And all those things ‘out there’ are all individual separate things.

None of it is separated except through thought because all of the images present are just one big canvas. Sounds overlap and intrude on each other, and there is a thought that says “I can separate bird song from car horns. Look! See? I've just named them!” But what is actually appearing is sound, with perhaps an image of a bird and an image of a car, and thoughts ABOUT sound appearing as a bird and car!

And thought appears saying “I can separate a cat from a book. See, I’ve just named them!” But what is actually appearing is colour and thoughts ABOUT colour appearing as shapes/images labelled ‘cat’ and ‘book’.

‘Things’ seemingly appear and there are never not things, but have a LOOK to see what is actually appearing.

What separates things? What makes up the borders? Can we pluck a thing out of the scenery in front of us? If not, is it truly separate or is it thought about variation in observed qualities which makes it so?

The next time you are watching television, look at the screen and see whether you can pluck an object from the scene. Are there objects existing inside the screen or is the image a seamless whole? What is it that makes it seem as though there are separate objects in the picture? Are they truly separated?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:19 pm

Hello Kay :)
yes,that's clear - there is nothing actually happens or appears to anyone , there simply is appearance
Appearance of what exactly?
appearance of what is

Without thought, how could it be known that sound is different to sensation etc?
And for differences to be known there would have to be an experiencer of experience. Can you find an experiencer anywhere?
it couldn't be known - the difference between sensation and sound #
without thought it's just happening, continuously;
the experience just is
experiencer is a thought , can't find it in the actual experience
So it was seen that the ‘space’ between the door that is ajar and the wall is simply colour?
yes,
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown.
Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’.
Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what remains?
experiencing;
awareness is left.
How can something be looked with awareness or with lack of awareness?
i mean that if you are occupied with thinking then you don't really look at something
but in simply looking at something there is only the awarenss of looking
What separates things?
it is thinking which separates through thinking
What makes up the borders?
thinking,indeed there aren't any without thinking about them
Can we pluck a thing out of the scenery in front of us?
no , not possible
is it truly separate or is it thought about variation in observed qualities which makes it so?
it is a big discovery in non-separateness
I often struggled with the feel of aloneness,separateness
though i see it is the thinking which separates and that it is not real
- the thinking quickly 'forgets' about this discovery and gets into the habitual thinking - as if it looks for separate things
-but the it is only thinking! what a relief to see it non separate

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:29 am

Hello Alaya,
yes,that's clear - there is nothing actually happens or appears to anyone , there simply is appearance
Appearance of what exactly?
appearance of what is
Does what IS/experience/THIS actually appear, or is it always here? Is THIS never not here?
Without thought, how could it be known that sound is different to sensation etc?
And for differences to be known there would have to be an experiencer of experience. Can you find an experiencer anywhere?
it couldn't be known - the difference between sensation and sound #
without thought it's just happening, continuously;
the experience just is
experiencer is a thought , can't find it in the actual experience
Yes exactly. I have pointed to this several times with questions like:-
Where does thought end and the knowing of thought begin?
Can a dividing line between hearer and sound be found?
Is "knowing" separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown.
Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’.
Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what remains?
experiencing;

awareness is left.
What remains…or always IS…is THIS/experience, appearing exactly as it is. It is only thought that names THIS as ‘colour’ and then further describes it as ‘brown’ and ‘table’.

Where does experiencing end and experiencer begin?

What is being aware? Is there anything being aware? Is there anything doing the being aware?

How can something be looked with awareness or with lack of awareness?
i mean that if you are occupied with thinking then you don't really look at something
but in simply looking at something there is only the awarenss of looking
Is there such a thing as awareness in which things appear? Is awareness ever actually experienced, or is it just an idea, an abstraction? Does it actually exist?

What is it that is “occupied with thinking”? Is there anyone/anything that is in control of what is being SEEMINGLY awared?


Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

What separates things?
it is thinking which separates through thinking
What is the AE of thinking? Do thoughts think themselves? What separates things is thought.
What makes up the borders?
thinking,indeed there aren't any without thinking about them
What exactly is “thinking about them”? Find this thinker and describe them to me in precise detail.


Where does thought end and the knowing of thought begin?
is it truly separate or is it thought about variation in observed qualities which makes it so?
it is a big discovery in non-separateness
I often struggled with the feel of aloneness,separateness
though i see it is the thinking which separates and that it is not real
Imagine an orange.
Can what is witnessing that (imaginary) orange be found in the experience itself?
Can what created that (imaginary) orange be found in the experience itself?
If it is said 'I created the imaginary orange' or 'I am witnessing the imaginary orange', can this 'I' be found?
Or is the 'I' in these statements from thought / belief only?

- the thinking quickly 'forgets' about this discovery and gets into the habitual thinking
Thoughts don’t think, nor do they forget…thoughts are not an entity that are aware or do anything!

A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever*. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought
- as if it looks for separate things
-but the it is only thinking! what a relief to see it non separate
You might like to revisit the sound with headphones exercise we did earlier on in our guiding, to see how there is no 'inside' or 'outside'.

We will try this exercise as well as a means to see if separation exists.

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc The following exercise is using only COLOUR.

Sit quietly somewhere where you won't be disturbed.
Take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and then close your eyes.

When closing the eyes, notice there is the experience of 'blackness'. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘blackness’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?
3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?
What do you find?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or ‘black’ just is?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeingcolour?

Can a 'see-er' be found at all in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Okay….then open the eyes and look around.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open, or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

Is the ‘see-er’ actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:34 pm

Hello Kay,
Does what IS/experience/THIS actually appear, or is it always here? Is THIS never not here?
yes, it is always here, it's always been here
Where does experiencing end and experiencer begin?
experiencing and experiencer are not separate -it doesn't have ending or beginning place
what it is, is actually experience, thought divides it into experiencing and experiencer
Is there such a thing as awareness in which things appear? Is awareness ever actually experienced, or is it just an idea, an abstraction? Does it actually exist?
awareness is a label of what is, of what appears exactly as it is
so what is actually experienced is experience
there aren't things which appear in awareness
What is it that is “occupied with thinking”? Is there anyone/anything that is in control of what is being SEEMINGLY awared?
''occupied with thinking'' is a thought
no one / no thing can be in control of what is seemingly aware; the control of being aware of something is also a concept
; so the thought appears '' there is control '' but it actually can't control anything and it comes with the 'me' who is a controler - this too is just a thought/idea
Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
i don't do anything, it moves by itself
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
:) this is a perfect example! - no control here!
What moves attention?
attention just moves itself it's actually never static
Is thought in control of attention?
no, it's not in control of anything

(thanks for this clear exersise x)

What exactly is “thinking about them”? Find this thinker and describe them to me in precise detail.
'thinking about them' is a thought
can't find the thinker! when look for thinker attention goes to another thought or to sensations
Imagine an orange.
Can what is witnessing that (imaginary) orange be found in the experience itself?
no,it's just imaginary, a thought
Can what created that (imaginary) orange be found in the experience itself?
no it was created in thought,it's imaginary
If it is said 'I created the imaginary orange' or 'I am witnessing the imaginary orange', can this 'I' be found?
Or is the 'I' in these statements from thought / belief only?
indeed, this is all created from thought/imagination -together with the concept of 'i'
A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever*. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought
this is the most clear explanation ever! thank you! very helpful
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?
yes, in the AE there is ae of colour , labelled 'black'
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?
no,there isn't
3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?
haha! no it can't be found
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?
What do you find
i just find this experience of colour
the seeing and the seeer are clearly one and the same experience, they are not separate at all!
Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or ‘black’ just is?
no witness, the colour just is
even looking for a witness sounds silly
Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeingcolour?
yep, they are not separate
Can a 'see-er' be found at all in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?
cant' find it in whatever is being seen , indeed there is 'seeingcolour' experience
Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open, or are they both simply the appearance of colour?
:) they are same appearance of colour!
this is great!
Is there anything that is witnessing colour?
no, none of it found, just colour
Is the ‘see-er’ actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?
that's right, it is a singular experience - no seeer or seeing , just experience

thanks!

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:35 am

Hello Alaya,

Lovely responses to all those pointers. Thank you for being so diligent in looking and observing. So it is clear there is no separation in any shape or form?

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:22 pm

Hello Kay,

thanks for this experience!
and for clear pointers,examples and explanation :)
the exploration feels very supportive
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
no,there isn't anything or anyone called 'self' or 'me/I'
this is just a thought/an idea
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
separate self is an illusion, 'self' is just an idea and it can't be found anywhere also in is not in control of anything as this is just a thought a concept; when the sense of self is seen as illusion then the label 'separate' drops too!
the 'label' separate' only appears when the idea of self arises
without the idea of self nothing is separate, so separate and self are just thoughts not an actual experience as it can't be experienced;
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
it actually is a relief, the difference is in seeing, the quality of it is lighter , clearer, non-sticky
things/experiences appear as always though seems to be less investment in 'owning' 'having' them or even labeling
it also feels like more at ease with what is
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
seeing & see-er seen as non-separate - it's literally not possible to separate it!
also kept coming back to focusing on breath and 'me trying to control it' - it never worked! so clearly seeing in a simple exercise that there is no such entity as the controler
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
mhmm decision,choice,free will or control - they are all labels of thinking ,they are concepts/ideas
all the above decision,control etc do arise in connection with the idea of 'i' 'me' , so I control or i make a decision;
when looking at who actually is a controler there is no one found in the actual experience, there is just experience itself
so clearly the experience is just happening with some thoughts appearing ,though thoughts themselves are not in charge,in control - they just happen to appear

nothing makes things happen, experience just is

for example - there is a sensation in my stomach , the thought comes 'i feel hungry'
then another thought already adds another story of me eating something so I think of grabbing some food - therefore being in control in what is happening... then I forget about the sensation and get into reading a book... so the focus is already on something else! - without even eating! so not really controlling what is happening right
when observing the thinking - it actually makes no sense! it just goes through different ideas on and on
even thinking or deciding of what i will eat or buy ... there are ideas and then in the actual experience something else appears

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I'm not sure I understand the question,

responsibility? i'm not responsible for anything

I see it similar as in the previous question to be honest - 'being responsible' is again a concept of 'me doing something' and this can't be controlled
responsibility for something/anything is a concept , idea and it always comes with the sense of 'me' 'self'
when you drop a label 'me' then the label responsible loses its meaning really
6) Anything to add?
not much ,
apart that this exploration feels like the very beginning of the further exploration
:)

many thanks x

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:10 am

Hello Alaya,
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I'm not sure I understand the question,
responsibility? i'm not responsible for anything

I see it similar as in the previous question to be honest - 'being responsible' is again a concept of 'me doing something' and this can't be controlled
responsibility for something/anything is a concept , idea and it always comes with the sense of 'me' 'self'
when you drop a label 'me' then the label responsible loses its meaning really
Yes, it is similar to the other questions :) Would you be able to provide and example please, from you own recent experiences of how you are not responsible for anything.
6) Anything to add?
not much ,
apart that this exploration feels like the very beginning of the further exploration
Yes, realising that there is no self is just a beginning and not an ending.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:21 am

Hello Kay,
Yes, it is similar to the other questions :) Would you be able to provide and example please, from you own recent experiences of how you are not responsible for anything.
ok,lets see
evertything is dependent,it's not separate from everything else therefore one entity/thought can't 'be responsible' for something else or someone else
so my responsibility is to cook dinner every week - this will not say anything about what will actually happen
there is an idea,a concept of 'me taking responsibility for cooking' so right here there is a thought ;
in the actual experience the 'i' or 'me' can't be responsible for anything because this is just a thought
it can't be found in the actual experience either
therefore a 'thought of me being responsible' although it's not known what will actually happen

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:26 am

Hey Alaya,
recent experiences of how you are not responsible for anything.
ok,lets see
evertything is dependent,it's not separate from everything else therefore one entity/thought can't 'be responsible' for something else or someone else
Where are these other 'entities' exactly?
Is there a 'self' that is responsible for anything?
Is there a 'self' that is the sayer, doer, thinker or feeler?

Are you the author of thought? If not, then how can you be responsible for what thoughts appear and when?
If you are not the 'doer' then what are you responsible for, exactly?

so my responsibility is to cook dinner every week - this will not say anything about what will actually happen
there is an idea,a concept of 'me taking responsibility for cooking' so right here there is a thought ;
Where exactly is the 'me' that is "responsible to cook dinner every week"?
Does this thought about a 'me taking responsibility for cooking' belong to anyone?

in the actual experience the 'i' or 'me' can't be responsible for anything because this is just a thought
it can't be found in the actual experience either
What are you referring to as a thought? The 'me'' or the thought about being 'responsible for dinner'? Or both?
therefore a 'thought of me being responsible' although it's not known what will actually happen
I don't understand what you are saying here.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm

Hello Kay,
hope you are well
just a quick one to say I will respond tomorrow
been on a whole day journey and couldn't access the internet on the train, now too tired to engage in responding
be back tomorrow

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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Hello Kay,
Where are these other 'entities' exactly?
I meant 'entity' as a mental construct,an idea
they are not anywhere , they are thoughts
Is there a 'self' that is responsible for anything?
no there is not, the self is a thought and is not in capacity of 'taking responsibility' or being in control
Is there a 'self' that is the sayer, doer, thinker or feeler?
no, thinking, feeling , hearing etc just happens - the self is just a thought attached to whatever happens
Are you the author of thought? If not, then how can you be responsible for what thoughts appear and when?
indeed, there is no author here
not possible to be responsible for what thoughts or sounds or feelings ,sensations appear and when they appear
If you are not the 'doer' then what are you responsible for, exactly?
in the actual experience ,can't be responsible for anything - can't take responsibility for sensing or hearing or feeling etc because it happens itself
to be responsible is an idea, it is not to be done by a self because the self is a thought itself!

Where exactly is the 'me' that is "responsible to cook dinner every week"?
Does this thought about a 'me taking responsibility for cooking' belong to anyone?
well it is in the thought - it has no particular place in space/time, it just appears in connection with other thoughts
and no - it doesn't belong to anyone, it is only a thought
What are you referring to as a thought? The 'me'' or the thought about being 'responsible for dinner'? Or both?
referring to both , both are thoughts
''therefore a 'thought of me being responsible' although it's not known what will actually happen''
I don't understand what you are saying here.
hmm, me neither! lost it there! :)

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Wed May 01, 2019 3:28 am

Hello Alaya,

Thank you for clarifying those questions. What I am going to do now is ask another guide to have a look at your thread to ensure that I have been pointing clearly - therefore you are clear, and to ensure that I have covered everything! This make take a couple of days. They may also further questions for you, depending on what they find when reading your thread. I will be in touch when I hear something back from them.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Wed May 01, 2019 7:04 am

Hello Alaya....that was quicker than I thought it would take.

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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