insight

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:40 am

Hello Alaya,
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘very alive?
Is there any inherent aliveness in the sensation itself?
no, there is only sensation
sensation is not static therefore the thinking labels it as alive
And without thought, how is it known that the sensation is static or not static?
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘very alive’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation labelled as ‘very alive’ …what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
no difference found
actually, the sensation was the same.
Yes…it is only thought that differentiates sensations by labelling sensation as intense, subtle, painful, tingly, and by labelling sensations as fear, pain, excitement and so on.

Without thought doing this…how is it known that there are many different sensations?

And without thought, how is it known where the sensations are located?

Replace the word ‘very alive’ with the word ‘fear’ and redo the exercise to get a good understanding of how thought compares sensations.
Let me know what you find.
the sensation is exactly the same!
it is easy to actually believe in fear through this exercise...
so i tell myself a story and here it is;
Yes, exactly. Sensation is simply sensation.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or aliveness?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear or aliveness?

The label 'fear' is AE of thought and not AE of fear
Sensations labelled as 'fear' are AE of sensation and not AE of fear
Image labelled as 'me/I/body' is AE of colour an not AE of a body
Thoughts ABOUT fear (the content of the thought 'fear') are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So what is known is label + sensations + colour + thoughts about fear, but is fear actually known?
What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?
I'm not sure I get it
what i see is only what i can imagine, i can only think of my face but can't see it even in my imagination,can think of it from the idea of how it looks like
Yes, you got it! Can you ever see what thought calls your own head and face? Can you see eyes, nose, mouth or is it simply imagined? So it is only thought that says that you have a head and that the head has a face that looks like 'me'.

So, now go to a mirror and look into the mirror. How is it known that this is your face?
What is the AE of ‘looking at my face’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:40 am

Hello Kay,
And without thought, how is it known that the sensation is static or not static?
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sens
oh i see
static is also a label
the ae is sensation
the thinking labels it as not static


Without thought doing this…how is it known that there are many different sensations?

And without thought, how is it known where the sensations are located?
without thought lables/names do not appear, without thought there are sensations,
there is no thought as 'my body' either so no location found
thinking/idea add location ie stomach ,leg ,head also thinking adds the label to sensation ie ache alive tense etc it is all added in with the label of 'me' 'mine' 'i' so the thinking creates the split into mine my as oppose to others, though unpacked this way it clearly shows that this is only an idea
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or aliveness?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear or aliveness?
suggestion is a label , it comes from thinking
fear actually is aliveness in the thinking
,will be same sensation, sensation is labelled differently
sensation doesn't know about different labels

thinkng labels sensations
pretty much instantly, once labelled the thining believes in this label , so the AE is then of thought rather than of sensation
So what is known is label + sensations + colour + thoughts about fear, but is fear actually known?
so fear is a story created upon thinking
the fear can't be experienced as actual experience , can't be known
if i swop fear for excitement same happens, a thought excitement can't be actually known

So, now go to a mirror and look into the mirror. How is it known that this is your face?
What is the AE of ‘looking at my face’?
there is just looking
face is image labeled as face,my face , in the AE it is shape,color

plus it is looking at mirror too,not actually at face
i will never know what looking at the actual face looks like

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:43 am

Hello Alaya,
And without thought, how is it known that the sensation is static or not static?
oh i see
static is also a label
the ae is sensation
the thinking labels it as not static
Anything that tries to describe actual experience is simply the AE of thought/label.
thinkng labels sensations
pretty much instantly, once labelled the thining believes in this label , so the AE is then of thought rather than of sensation
Can you find anyone who is believing anything? Is ‘thinking’ an entity that can believe? What does the word ‘thinking’ point to?
What does the word 'believe' point to?

So what is known is label + sensations + colour + thoughts about fear, but is fear actually known?
so fear is a story created upon thinking
the fear can't be experienced as actual experience , can't be known
How is it known that thought creates the sensation labelled as 'fear'?

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

if i swop fear for excitement same happens, a thought excitement can't be actually known
The thought ‘excitement’ is AE of thought, not the AE of excitement.
Sensation labelled as ‘excitement’ is AE of sensation and not AE of excitement
Can you see this?

So, now go to a mirror and look into the mirror. How is it known that this is your face?
What is the AE of ‘looking at my face’?
there is just looking
face is image labeled as face,my face , in the AE it is shape,color
Yes, exactly.
plus it is looking at mirror too,not actually at face
i will never know what looking at the actual face looks like
And what is the AE of ‘mirror’? Is that not also AE of colour? Can a mirror be found as AE?

Okay, so you did the flipping of the hand exercise to see if you could find a chooser, decider or controller. Let’s continue that with the following experiment.

So the aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:18 am

Hello Kay,

I am well enjoying doing this exploration, thanks for your support;
Can you find anyone who is believing anything? Is ‘thinking’ an entity that can believe? What does the word ‘thinking’ point to?
What does the word 'believe' point to?
no, there is no one found, 'belief' is a label, a story
thinking, in this case, labelled as belief
thinking points to an idea of AE but not the AE itself
'believe' points to the AE of thinking
1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
no they don't
Is there a link between the two?
no there is not, only another thought
2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
no, you whether think of sensation or experience sensation
if i swop fear for excitement same happens, a thought excitement can't be actually known
The thought ‘excitement’ is AE of thought, not the AE of excitement.
Sensation labelled as ‘excitement’ is AE of sensation and not AE of excitement
Can you see this?
yes, clear about this
excitement is a label of sensation, so is fear

And what is the AE of ‘mirror’? Is that not also AE of colour? Can a mirror be found as AE?
indeed, the AE of 'mirror' is also ae of colour
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
both , qualities and preferences simply appeared as thoughts
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
while counting , the preference already happened
and there was just counting
didn't find any function of choosing
thinking just happened from thinking about drinks to counting to listening to birds then to thinking about drinks

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
couldn't find anything as 'the chooser'
in direct experience there was looking at drinks
then drinking one of them
a mental function , thinking of drinks was labelling ,describing the drinks, from the idea of them, not from the AE of drinking
when asked 'who is choosing' couldn't track it downs, the thought just desappeared

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:36 am

Hello Alaya,
I am well enjoying doing this exploration, thanks for your support;
That’s good to hear. You are most welcome and you are doing a wonderful job of observing and looking.
Can you find anyone who is believing anything? Is ‘thinking’ an entity that can believe? What does the word ‘thinking’ point to? What does the word 'believe' point to?
no, there is no one found, 'belief' is a label, a story
thinking, in this case, labelled as belief
thinking points to an idea of AE but not the AE itself
'believe' points to the AE of thinking
Yes…exactly!
1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?

no they don't
Is there a link between the two?

no there is not, only another thought
One thing can't cause another because there are no separate things, and since there are no separate things there is no thing that can cause an effect onto something else. Cause and effect is the belief in time.

So is it clear that a thought does not create or initiate a sensation and vice versa?

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
no, you whether think of sensation or experience sensation
Where exactly is the “experiencer of sensation”.
Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin? In other words, where is the dividing line between a seeming ‘feeler’ and the sensation itself?

yes, clear about this
excitement is a label of sensation, so is fear
Wonderful :)
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
while counting , the preference already happened
and there was just counting
didn't find any function of choosing
thinking just happened from thinking about drinks to counting to listening to birds then to thinking about drinks
Nice :)
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
couldn't find anything as 'the chooser'
in direct experience there was looking at drinks
then drinking one of them
a mental function , thinking of drinks was labelling ,describing the drinks, from the idea of them, not from the AE of drinking
when asked 'who is choosing' couldn't track it downs, the thought just disappeared
Lovely!

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:59 pm

Hello Kay,

thanks for this ;
One thing can't cause another because there are no separate things, and since there are no separate things there is no thing that can cause an effect onto something else. Cause and effect is the belief in time.

So is it clear that a thought does not create or initiate a sensation and vice versa?
I'm not sure if I'm totally clear around it
I'm clear that the thought is not a creator of sensation and it doesn't initiate sensation, and vice versa

though how does it work with negative memories then? I bring to mind some story around shame or fear and actually can feel it in the body too;
Oh! I think i get it! I don't feel the story but in the actual experience there is sensation present
the thought manifested as memory is not the actual experience, it is an idea

as in 'what is' in the presence, I agree - there is no cause and effect, the experience simply is

though in terms of ethics - it feels important to hold that belief, what do you think?
Where exactly is the “experiencer of sensation”.
Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin? In other words, where is the dividing line between a seeming ‘feeler’ and the sensation itself?
the experiencer is a thought, there is just an experience of sensation

the sensation doesn't end , it is the focus/attention moving from sensation to thinking
when the focus moves from the known sensation to thinking - the label appears eg ' i am feeling the sensation'', just as an idea , it then moves to another thought or another sensation
there is no dividing line here; as mentioned above, they are not separate in their nature

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
no, I can't 'choose' what is seen, I just see what's there; can't turn the seeing off
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
same here, can't choose what i see
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
with the eyes closed i see the 'black space'
can't choose to see something else

Can you turn off seeing?
the seeing is just happening , can't just turn it off
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
there is focus on what is seen though no chooser found
in this exploration it is really clear that self has no choice , choice is an idea , self is an idea too
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
was there ever a choice?
this doesn't seem to be an option
rather being aware of what is, being aware of an actual experience

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:22 am

Hello Alaya.
So is it clear that a thought does not create or initiate a sensation and vice versa?
I'm not sure if I'm totally clear around it

I'm clear that the thought is not a creator of sensation and it doesn't initiate sensation, and vice versa

though how does it work with negative memories then? I bring to mind some story around shame or fear and actually can feel it in the body too;
Oh! I think i get it! I don't feel the story but in the actual experience there is sensation present
the thought manifested as memory is not the actual experience, it is an idea
The thoughts (story) are appearing now which thought suggests has happened in the past. But when are those thoughts actually appearing? Where is the past exactly? If thought appears saying you ate an ice-cream yesterday….where is ‘yesterday’ in actual experience. When is that thought and images of eating an ice-cream actually appearing?

What is the AE of ‘guilt’ and ‘shame’?

though in terms of ethics - it feels important to hold that belief, what do you think?
And what exactly is thinking this or needs this belief? Can you let of or hold onto sound? Then how do you hold onto or let go of a thought. A belief is nothing more than a thought that is validated by other thoughts.

There has NEVER been a Alayaself EVER, so what is it exactly that has been acting ethically? The idea that somehow you are going to become a thief or a murderer of whatever if you don’t have some beliefs about a separate “I” who is controlling is funny. Where is this controller? Where is the doer, thinker, feeler, sayer or chooser?
the sensation doesn't end , it is the focus/attention moving from sensation to thinking
when the focus moves from the known sensation to thinking - the label appears eg ' i am feeling the sensation'', just as an idea , it then moves to another thought or another sensation
there is no dividing line here; as mentioned above, they are not separate in their nature
Yes, so there is only ever experience/THIS, and it experience cannot be outside of itself experiencing itself!
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
there is focus on what is seen though no chooser found
in this exploration it is really clear that self has no choice , choice is an idea , self is an idea too

Yes..so it puts paid to the idea that you are the chooser of anything. Whether it be ethics, morals, thoughts, stories, feelings/sensations, sounds, actions etc. Are you responsible for anything? Is there free will?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
was there ever a choice?
this doesn't seem to be an option
rather being aware of what is, being aware of an actual experience
I don’t understand your point here. Can you please explain what you mean.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:23 am

Hi Kay,
The thoughts (story) are appearing now which thought suggests has happened in the past. But when are those thoughts actually appearing? Where is the past exactly? If thought appears saying you ate an ice-cream yesterday….where is ‘yesterday’ in actual experience. When is that thought and images of eating an ice-cream actually appearing?

What is the AE of ‘guilt’ and ‘shame’?
I see, that's clear,thanks
past doesn't exist in AE, so all thinking manifest as an idea
in terms of all stories , this is the actual experience of thoughts and only thoughts
What is the AE of ‘guilt’ and ‘shame’?
again, yes i seee it here - the actual experience is the AE of thought
when I actually look at t - it is an idea rather than experience
There has NEVER been a Alayaself EVER, so what is it exactly that has been acting ethically? The idea that somehow you are going to become a thief or a murderer of whatever if you don’t have some beliefs about a separate “I” who is controlling is funny. Where is this controller? Where is the doer, thinker, feeler, sayer or chooser?
good point!
it is quite funny actually! :)
thanks for a good example!
these thoughts manifested as beliefs bring another story of a separate self
there is no chooser or controller in the experience...
Yes..so it puts paid to the idea that you are the chooser of anything. Whether it be ethics, morals, thoughts, stories, feelings/sensations, sounds, actions etc. Are you responsible for anything? Is there free will?
indeed, ethics is yet another idea,thought
can't choose to hold on to it or to any other idea
'responsible' is also another idea , a thought of 'i' doning something/holding onto something
in the actual exerience, the experience of sound,sensation,seeing,etc just is
the 'I' ,the thought of 'me' can't be responsible, it is not in any control
same with free will - it is an idea, can't find it in the AE, it is just a concept, a thought
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
was there ever a choice?
this doesn't seem to be an option
rather being aware of what is, being aware of an actual experience
I don’t understand your point here. Can you please explain what you mean.

what I mean is that 'the choice' is a thought
in the experience, there is just experience
so there has never been anyone who is choosing anything , as well as there is no such a thing as choice
if there is no chooser there is no choice
choosing is a thought of controlling something - the 'i' is not able to be in control, is not able to choose,
it is only a thought , an idea appearing
there is awareness of what is ,right now

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Hi Alaya,

You are doing a wonderful job of observing and looking Alaya
The thoughts (story) are appearing now which thought suggests has happened in the past. But when are those thoughts actually appearing? Where is the past exactly? If thought appears saying you ate an ice-cream yesterday….where is ‘yesterday’ in actual experience. When is that thought and images of eating an ice-cream actually appearing?
I see, that's clear,thanks
past doesn't exist in AE, so all thinking manifest as an idea
in terms of all stories , this is the actual experience of thoughts and only thoughts
Yes, the past does not exist as AE. Time is a concept. Even the ‘present’ is a story about a story happening now. The herenow does not refer to a place and time. It refers to experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.

If thought says that you saw a spectacular sunrise yesterday…is that sunrise (AE as colour) experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (ie now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it That is, that the colour thought refers to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about actual experience which is not the current experience which then equates to just story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.
Is this clear?
What is the AE of ‘guilt’ and ‘shame’?
again, yes i seee it here - the actual experience is the AE of thought
when I actually look at t - it is an idea rather than experience
Yes. And thought points to sensations and suggests that those sensations are guilt and shame. Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are guilt and shame or that they know anything about guilt and shame?

If we break down 'guilt' for example:-

The label 'guilt' is AE of thought and not AE of guilt
Sensations labelled as 'guilt' are AE of sensations and not AE of guilt
Image labelled as 'me/body/I' is AE of colour and not AE of guilt
The thoughts about 'guilt' - what it is, why it is happening etc is AE of thought and not AE of guilt

So what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about guilt, however is guilt actually known?
Yes..so it puts paid to the idea that you are the chooser of anything. Whether it be ethics, morals, thoughts, stories, feelings/sensations, sounds, actions etc. Are you responsible for anything? Is there free will?
indeed, ethics is yet another idea,thought
can't choose to hold on to it or to any other idea
'responsible' is also another idea , a thought of 'i' doning something/holding onto something
in the actual exerience, the experience of sound,sensation,seeing,etc just is
the 'I' ,the thought of 'me' can't be responsible, it is not in any control
same with free will - it is an idea, can't find it in the AE, it is just a concept, a thought
I don’t understand what you mean when you say “in the actual exerience, the experience of sound,sensation,seeing,etc just is the 'I'”, can you please elaborate on what you are saying please.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

was there ever a choice?
this doesn't seem to be an option
rather being aware of what is, being aware of an actual experience
I don’t understand your point here. Can you please explain what you mean.
what I mean is that 'the choice' is a thought
in the experience, there is just experience
so there has never been anyone who is choosing anything , as well as there is no such a thing as choice
if there is no chooser there is no choice
choosing is a thought of controlling something - the 'i' is not able to be in control, is not able to choose,
it is only a thought , an idea appearing
there is awareness of what is ,right now
Lovely, yes!

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:49 am

Hello Kay,

thanks for this;
Yes, the past does not exist as AE. Time is a concept. Even the ‘present’ is a story about a story happening now. The herenow does not refer to a place and time. It refers to experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.

If thought says that you saw a spectacular sunrise yesterday…is that sunrise (AE as colour) experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (ie now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it That is, that the colour thought refers to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about actual experience which is not the current experience which then equates to just story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.
Is this clear?
yes, all clear,thanks
present,past,future are all concepts,thoughts and can't be found in the Actual experience;
Thoughts can point to other thoughts or to actual experience (as what is happening presently)
Yes. And thought points to sensations and suggests that those sensations are guilt and shame. Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are guilt and shame or that they know anything about guilt and shame?
sensations in themselves are only sensations
they don't have the 'knowing' capacity ie labelling what it is
indeed, ethics is yet another idea,thought
can't choose to hold on to it or to any other idea
'responsible' is also another idea , a thought of 'i' doning something/holding onto something
in the actual exerience, the experience of sound,sensation,seeing,etc just is
the 'I' ,the thought of 'me' can't be responsible, it is not in any control
same with free will - it is an idea, can't find it in the AE, it is just a concept, a thought
I don’t understand what you mean when you say “in the actual exerience, the experience of sound,sensation,seeing,etc just is the 'I'”, can you please elaborate on what you are saying please?
oh! I think there is a grammar mistake!
I mean '' in the actual experience, the experience of sound, sensation, seeing,etc just is ,it is just happening.
The concept of 'I' ,the thought of 'me' can't in any way be responsible,it is not in any control because it is just a thought,an idea.''

Can it be known how tall the body is?
in the AE it can't be known, there can be an idea about it
Does the body have a weight or volume?
no, again, there is an idea of it
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
no it doesn't, shape or a form of a body is an idea, a thought
i can't point at shape of the body in the AE, when I try it takes me to thinking about the body,to labelling it
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
no clear boundary found
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
again, no clear boundary found
only the idea of a boundary
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
the thinking is very persistent, the thoughts appear : there is this body and it's got skin and inside there are veins and bones and blood etc it gives a full story
though in the Actual Experience , when I close eyes and sit quietly,and lower my awareness/focus from thinking to the body : there is a different response, the body is much much bigger and spacious, there is no inside,as if the body is invisible,made of sensations; there is no inside or outside; there are sounds , sensations , touch but the 'inside and outside' seems to be another concept

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
hmmm, it refers to the visual image, it is a label, AE of shape/colour
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
hmmm...
I'm puzzled here (in a good way!)
in the AE there are sensations, sounds
though the AE of body is the AE of thought , the word body is a label

so basically sensations or sounds are just happening,
it is the thought 'they are happening in my body'

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Hello Alaya,
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
the thinking is very persistent, the thoughts appear : there is this body and it's got skin and inside there are veins and bones and blood etc it gives a full story
though in the Actual Experience , when I close eyes and sit quietly,and lower my awareness/focus from thinking to the body : there is a different response, the body is much much bigger and spacious, there is no inside,as if the body is invisible,made of sensations; there is no inside or outside; there are sounds , sensations , touch but the 'inside and outside' seems to be another concept.
The idea of there being a ‘me’ here inside and a world outside of ‘me’ infers that that there is a ‘me’ separate to everything else, and that there is a ‘me’ that life is happening to. Let’s look at this with just using sound.

Where are sounds appearing?

For this experiment you will need a set of headphones and some music.

Take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and then close your eyes and listen to a piece of music.

Listen to a couple of minutes of music.
When you are listening to music with headphones on, isn’t it obvious that the music appears in the same place, as do thoughts and sensations? They seem to appear in side ‘me’.

Then with eyes still closed, take off the headphones and listen to whatever other sounds are present (ie birds singing, clock ticking, car passing by etc) and it seems that the sounds are appearing outside of ‘me’.

Put your headphones back on again and all that is present in hearing the sound is sound itself.

Take the headphones off. Is not the experience the same…that in hearing the sound is sound itself?

Keep doing this until it becomes clear that not only do thoughts and feelings appear in the same place, but that sound do also.

Is there an inside ‘me’ and an outside of ‘me’?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
hmmm, it refers to the visual image, it is a label, AE of shape/colour
The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
hmmm...
I'm puzzled here (in a good way!)
in the AE there are sensations, sounds
though the AE of body is the AE of thought , the word body is a label
Yes..exactly.

The label ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body
Sensation labelled as ‘body’ are AE of sensation and not AE of a body
Image labelled as ‘body/me/I’ are AE of colour and not AE of a body.
Thoughts ABOUT a body, what it is, does etc are AE of thought and not AE of a body

So label + sensation + colour + thoughts are known…but is a body actually known?
so basically sensations or sounds are just happening,
it is the thought 'they are happening in my body'
Lovely, yes!

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Hello Kay,

thanks for this,
Is there an inside ‘me’ and an outside of ‘me’?
good exercise!
yes, in the hearing there is sound itself, no distinction between outside or inside, the sound appears in the same place
this points that thoughts too are not inside or outside, as well as feelings they are not inside or outside

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:45 pm

Hello Alaya,
Is there an inside ‘me’ and an outside of ‘me’?
good exercise!
yes, in the hearing there is sound itself, no distinction between outside or inside, the sound appears in the same place
this points that thoughts too are not inside or outside, as well as feelings they are not inside or outside
Exactly. Experience has no location. It is thought that gives experience a location, plus distance and space.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm

Hello Kay,
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
no actual connection found,
there were thoughts about the image, identified as 'me'
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
no actual connection found, just thoughts
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
there are sensations, there is an image, no connection found, thinking suggests 'me doing something' but actually even in there, there is no connection found
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
no, there is just an image
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
no, there is just an image
Or are there only colours and shapes?
indeed, there are all sorts of colours and all sorts of shapes in the image
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
only thinking and mental images suggesting that there is the rest of the body
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
when the thoughts are ignored - there are only sensations
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
body walking - is a thought, in the actual experience there are only sensations
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
no, walking is a label,a thought
there are sensations found
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
thats' right, just thought about walking
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
the image in the mirror can be found, the thinking about the body can be found, sensations can be found
body is a thought,a label - can't be found in Actual experience
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
sensations can be found, but walking can't, walking is a thought/label
Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
sensations just appear
no location found - just thinking abou location ie room or inside or outside

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:09 pm

Hey Alaya,

I have no further questions with regards the idea of the body. Moving onto the idea of time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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